Protests and Tear Gas at the U.S. Embassy in Bolivia
Readers:Political tensions between the U.S. and Bolivia are not a new thing. Especially since Evo Morales became President two and a half years ago, those tensions have erupted over and over again, with barbs traded in counter directions from the mouths of Morales, Donald Rumsfeld, George Bush, Bolivia's Foreign Minister, and U.S. Ambassador to Bolivia Phillip Goldberg, among others. Up until now, however, those tensions have just been diplomatic.
On Monday the political tug of war between Bolivia and Washington exploded into the streets, near the entrance to the U.S.'s white fortress-like embassy in La Paz. News reports revealed the long-held secret that a former Bolivian official charged with ordering a civilian massacre, Carlos Sánchez Berzaín (picured above), had been granted political asylum by the Bush Administration. Families of those killed, joined by thousands of others, descended into La Paz, setting off a melee of protest and repression.
In the U.S., Sánchez Berzaín and his long-time boss, former President Gonzalo Sánchez de Lozada launched a public relations campaign to accompany their legal motion to dismiss a high-profile civil suit against them. The 'hook' that the indicted pair used to try to diminish the charges against them – newly reclassified cables from the U.S. Embassy to Washington sent in the midst of the February and October 2003 massacres, which claim that the pair didn't violate human rights.
The whimsical thing of course about those U.S. cables, is that support from Bush administration officials was the only thing that kept Sánchez de Lozada and Sánchez Berzaín in office an extra bloody week after even Sánchez de Lozada's own Vice President, Carlos Mesa, broke with him over the killings. I'm guessing they aren't planning to call Mesa as a witness.
For those who want to see the two men's respect for human rights in action, have a look at chapter three from this video footage. The army tank raining bullets across a La Paz hillside was an especially nice touch, and again, not likely to be brought forward by the pair as evidence in their demand for a legal dismissal.
In effect what Sánchez de Lozada and Sánchez Berzaín are arguing is that they can't be tried in Bolivia because they won't get a fair trial and they can't be tried anywhere else, including the U.S., because the massacres (including the death of children) took place in Bolivia. This translates of course into a word, 'impunity'. And it is that impunity, backed and boosted by the Bush Administration, which sent tens of thousands of angry Bolivians into the streets on Monday.
Here is our report from Aldo Orellana and Leny Olivera (translated by Lily Whitesell).
Jim Shultz
Protests and Tear Gas at the U.S. Embassy in Bolivia
On Monday, thousands of citizens of El Alto descended into La Paz and surrounded the U.S. embassy building. They were protesting the decision made by the U.S. government to grant political asylum to ex-defense minister Carlos Sánchez Berzaín, who is accused in Bolivia of grave violations of human rights and economic damage to the Bolivian nation.
Last Thursday, June 5, Sánchez Berzaín, from the United States, told a Bolivian radio station that he had been given political asylum a year ago and will not return to defend himself in Bolivian courts. In the interview, which was given from the United States, Berzaín claimed to be “politically persecuted” by the current administration and accused President Evo Morales of being responsible for the massacre of October 2003. For more about the case, see this article.
Carlos Sánchez Berzaín and ex-President Gonzalo Sánchez de Lozada, classified as “fugitives” by the Bolivian courts, have been formally accused for being responsible for the events of September and October 2003, in which 67 people were killed and approximately 400 were injured in the city of El Alto during popular protests demanding the nationalization of the country’s oil and gas.
An estimated 80,000 people participated in the demonstrations in front of the U.S. embassy yesterday, which was guarded by police forces from early in the day. The demonstration began in El Alto at 8:00 in the morning, and after descending 12 kilometers into the city of La Paz, the protests reached their destination at around 10:30. The embassy was guarded by metal gates, which kept protesters three blocks away from the building. The anti-protestor police force was equipped with dogs, and “Neptune” cars, which carry fire hoses specifically to disperse crowds.
At approximately 1PM, after a series of confrontations between the protesters and the police, the latter began to shoot tear gas, forcing the protesters to disperse. Fortunately, there were no other incidents, although the force used by the police was called unnecessary by a government minister. The head of police was replaced shortly afterwards. In a news release, however, the U.S. embassy publicly thanked the police guard and stated its hope to improve the relationship between the United States and Bolivia.
Diplomacy in Bolivia and the United States
The government chancellor David Choquehuanca, who met with ambassador Philip Goldberg in a meeting on Tuesday morning, called Goldberg’s explanations regarding Sánchez Berzaín’s asylum status unsatisfactory, and that the Bolivian government would make the necessary efforts to reverse the decision. On Tuesday, local press reported that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, in a letter dated May 1, stated that Sánchez Berzaín’s status could be revoked at any time, particularly if he is formally accused of certain criminal activities.
Ambassador Goldberg, on the other hand, avoided referring specifically to Sánchez Berzaín’s case in a press conference, saying only that “political asylum” and “extradition” in general, are legal, judicial, and administrative matters. Because they are not political issues, he told the press, he could say nothing on the subject. In the meeting with Choquehuanca, he also stated that he was surprised by the news of the political asylum status himself.
Meanwhile in the United States, the Bolivian embassy announced that Sánchez Berzaín had not only obtained political asylum by claiming political persecution on the part of the Morales government, but that he had also accused Evo Morales of supporting narcotrafficking.
In a press release from the Bolivian embassy in the United States, the implications of the decision are put in the following light:
“If the Department of Homeland Security grants Carlos Sánchez Berzaín’s political asylum application [it implies that] the government of the United States takes as truth not only the arguments of the ex-minister, but also his accusations. The government of Mr. Bush has granted political asylum to an individual that accuses the government of President Morales of supporting and promoting narcotrafficking and ‘criminal cocaine organizations.’ This is something that the administration of President Bush needs to clarify.”
Reactions to the “Political Asylum”
Pamela Ledezma, member of the Human Rights Assembly and one of the proponents of the cases against these ex-authorities, said of the asylum and U.S. efforts to block the case:
“It is truly a lack of respect to the Bolivian people who know about the events that have occurred, and who are shocked because a person who is accused of crimes against human rights cannot be granted political refugee status. Simply put, the events by which Gonzalo Sánchez de Lozada and his collaborators are being judged have nothing to do with politics. They have to do with their crimes.”
On Sunday, the Vice Minister of Justice and Human Rights, Wilfredo Chávez, stated while that the current situation severely damages the possibility of extraditing Berzaín to Bolivia, all is not necessarily lost. The Vice Minister explained that it is still possible for Berzaín’s political refugee status to be revoked because political asylum is only possible when political persecution is in place. Sánchez de Lozada, Sánchez Berzaín, and their collaborators, he noted, would not be tried for political crimes, but rather for “common” crimes like the violation of human rights and for economic crimes – most notably, the disappearance of approximately $USD 300,000 from the Central Bank of Bolivia, which shortly afterwards reappeared in the possession of ex-minister of government Yerko Kukoc in Santa Cruz.
“They are crimes not only against humanity but also crimes of an economic nature that have turned these gentlemen into ‘common’ fugitives from justice. There is therefore substantial foundation for the case that because these types of crimes [are included in the case against him], Mr. Berzaín should not enjoy the privilege of political refugee status,” said the Vice Minister.
Written by Aldo Orellana and Leny Olivera (translated by Lily Whitesell).

The Democracy Center, based in Cochabamba Bolivia and San Francisco California, works globally to advance human rights through a combination of investigation and reporting, training citizens in the art of public advocacy, and organizing international citizen campaigns. If you like the Blog, consider becoming a subscriber to The Democracy Center's free e-newsletter by sending us an email at 
93 Comments:
The "reports" from Aldo Orellana and Leny Olivera are pure comedy primarily because of their blatant omissions.
How about a link to the extensive video of the fichas that were being handed out for participation?
Jim's own reports at least touch on validity of opposing points of view. Aldo Orellana and Leny Olivera consistently read more like propaganda.
Bert
Please, don't insult our intelligence. The "victims" were far from pacifist or innocent. They were burning public and private property. Looting was rampant as well as reports of other crimes. The city was under siege for several days. If there was one instance that the use of force by the government to protect civilians was justified. This was it.
To suggest that Bush protect Goni is even more insulting. There was even a NY Times Op-Ed during that time were J. Sachs condems the US for not supporting Goni.
Now if you think that these two despicable characters will get a fair trial, then you surely are smoking some good herb.
This is the bigger problem. Evo has so dismantled the judicial system, so corrupted it, that nobody in Bolivia can expect a fair trial. Even criminals who are on on video attacking journalists have their police report mysteriously lost.
And finally...let's report some truths behing the march: Originally it was AGAINST Evo for the the inflation. But he paid off Patana, who subsequently paid off the protesters. There are plenty of videos showing "fichas" being passed around as well as people claiming that there was a $50 penalty for not marching.
If anything, you should show outrage that these "leaders" sent children and women to the forefront to bear the brunt of the police's actions.
Estimado residentes Bolivianos en EEUU o los que tienen parientes o amigos en EEUU:
CONTEXTO:
Barack Obama seguramente sera el próximo presidente de EEUU. En su totalidad eso es bueno. Pero lastimosamente para nosotros, eso puede ser un problema para Bolivia por que uno de sus asesores es un ex abogado de los Clinton, Greg Craig. (fiel abogado, Craig cambio de caballos en medio carrera al ver que Obama ganaba a Clinton y abandono a los Clinton.)
PUNTO EN CUESTION:
Craig no tiene buenas intenciones en relación a Bolivia. El abogo para dar asilo político para Sanchez Berzain a base de mentiras y la falta de una oposicion eficaz de parte del gobierno de Evo. Sabe Dios que otras ideas equivocadas puede estar abogando Craig después que Obama entra al poder.
ACCION:
Por eso, es importante llamar a Obama para que despide a el abogado de Sanchez Berzain, Greg Craig, como su asesor en relación a temas sobre Latino América. Llama a Obama al numero (866) 675-2008 para evitar mal consejos que pueden ser peor para Bolivia.
Ver video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dAZVH6yaCA
Let's see, which view from the time should we rely on?
There is Jeffrey Sachs, Goni's friend of twenty years writing from the comfort of his apartment in Manhattan. Then there is Goni's Vice President, Carlos Mesa, writing from La Paz while the tanks were shooting people like dogs.
Tough choice.
"And finally...let's report some truths behing the march: Originally it was AGAINST Evo for the the inflation. But he paid off Patana, who subsequently paid off the protesters. There are plenty of videos showing "fichas" being passed around as well as people claiming that there was a $50 penalty for not marching."
So a country rebelled and put themselves in the firing line for a few kickbacks. It wasn't, perhaps, the desperate decline in their living standards over a 20 year period directly related to policies such as the gas sale.
Really, it just goes to show that once people have taken an ideology into their heart, be it socialist or neo-conservative, they will convince themselves with the most silly of lies.
Money from Goni, Zorro, corrupted the Judicial system in Bolivia. Money from the is still messing up the country. They are foxes lying as usual, anyone who does not admit that they are crooks, indecent, inmoral thugs who destroyed Bolivia are just ignorant or sellouts.
Bolivia for the first time is in the path of great Change. No more MNR, PODEMOS, NFR, ADN.
Keep the Sanchez, Banzer, and Golbergs out of the present and future of a promising Bolivia.
A promising future of Bolivia? Does Zimbabwe ring any bells with you?
Sorry Bowsie,
Check your facts. Poverty levels went down during the 20yrs of "neoliberal" rule. I know you don't hear this in the 'alternative' press. Afterall they make your claim without any factual evidence. As much as Evo, Linera and others say so, it ain't true that the country is poorer. In fact, it is quite the opposite. The problem is that it couldn't grow fast enough to compensate for demographics.
What is even more remarkable is if you put in context that the neoliberals did this while (1) there were global crisis in dev countries (real, thai, russia) and (2) they shifted an economy from being mostly drug/state based to a market economy.
Now, living comfortably in the US, you might not be aware of the extreme poverty in Bolivia. Should it surprise you that people are willing to be used for B$50, when you buy a girl in El Alto for B$15? You should know that miners, for one, are willing to die for much, much less.
"Sorry Bowsie,
Check your facts. Poverty levels went down during the 20yrs of "neoliberal" rule. I know you don't hear this in the 'alternative' press. Afterall they make your claim without any factual evidence. As much as Evo, Linera and others say so, it ain't true that the country is poorer. In fact, it is quite the opposite. The problem is that it couldn't grow fast enough to compensate for demographics."
Anyone can cherry-pick economic figures to suit their argument Anon. Real averages wages are lower now than they were in 1985, at the beginning of the "neo-liberal" reforms. "In the case of Bolivia, Velde (2003) finds
that foreign direct investment may have accounted for a significant part of the
observed increase in urban wage inequality during the
period 1987-97, with foreign direct investment correlated with lower real wages
for skilled and unskilled workers." A quick look at how Bolivian assets were corruptly handed out, and the brutal share that Bolivian people received is an explanation for this. You can find a report from the Overseas Development Institute outlining this waste of wealth here / That you say wealth generation didn't match demographic increases betrays a chronic misunderstanding of the principles of economic growth - I'm not sure where to start. Introductions to the work force from demographic growth should increase wealth generation in a functioning system.
The first Goni government provided relief on poverty figures, and that did help improve figures in the early nineties. But considering the wealth to be generated from capitisation - this is a poor return. It was crumbs from the table of a massive sell out of state assets. In fact, if you calculate poverty rates comparatively then there has been a huge increase in rates.
The simple facts are that despite a rise in GDP for Bolivia leading from the investment of foreign capital, the poor's share of the pie got smaller and smaller. The disparity of wealth in Bolivia rocketed over twenty years. "Regression
results show that neither education nor financial
market development interact significantly with FDI
in their effect on growth."
"What is even more remarkable is if you put in context that the neoliberals did this while (1) there were global crisis in dev countries (real, thai, russia) and (2) they shifted an economy from being mostly drug/state based to a market economy."
Again, this statement beggar's belief. What is remarkable about desperate economic performance in a period of growth? The years 1985-2005 was miracle time for wealth generation globally. What the conversion of Russia from communism to capitalism, or the Asian Tiger collapse (both the direct result of neo-liberal corruption), is puzzling. Plus, if the move to the market economy made adjusted wages for people lower, how is that a success? Simply because you get to say "Market Economy" doesn't mean squat, unless people's lives have been improved. Where economic policies were fairly implemented to open access to markets and investment, in countries like Ireland, which were also desperately poor in 1985, they have performed economic miracles.
"Now, living comfortably in the US, you might not be aware of the extreme poverty in Bolivia. Should it surprise you that people are willing to be used for B$50, when you buy a girl in El Alto for B$15? You should know that miners, for one, are willing to die for much, much less."
I don't live in the US, nor am I a US citizen. But I have lived in Bolivia, and retain a deep link to the country and am well aware of the levels of poverty there. Again personalising this against me, what are you achieving Anon?
Ay Jim ponte serio. No puedes ser tan furioso en ru rabia a Gonisito.
I've heard the smear about Morales using kickbacks before.It was one of the main opposition lines of attack after a 2 million strong march on the outskirts of La Paz in support of his government which followed a few days after the 1 million strong cabildo in Santa Cruz a couple of years back.
CNN En Espanol dutifully reported this smear against the Bolivian President as fact without producing any evidence whatsoever.The idea that the indigenous of the altiplano would need to be given money to support the Morales government when it seems this week that the very same government is having it's work cut out simply keeping indigenous hands off the throats of the inhabitants of the US embassy for protecting the people Morales is trying to jail is preposterous to say the least.
More bullshit from the right. As usual.
Lets see 2 to 3 years to get US political asylum meaning greencard, thats mighty fast considering the vast majority of the masses have to wait a lot longer for a visa.
Memo
TO: Visa aplicants at the US Embassy in La Paz
RE: Answer to the question, "Are you intending to return to Bolivia
Incorrect answer: Yes, my family and my job are in Bolivia.
Correct answer: No way in hell, I just killed five dozen people.
It's telling how lefties are so quick to defend democratic values when democratically leftist leaders, no matter how corrupt or hated, are kicked out a la Chavez or Allende, yet are quick to defend as "popular revolts" when democratically elected leaders are kicked out a la Goni. Oh, yeah, and it's always the fault of the United Sates.
Thanks to the Morales' government Black Hole stupidity, the difficulty for el Zorro's (no, not that one) and Goni's return extradition to Bolivia has exponentially increased due to the images shown around the world of those bunch of Neanderthals trying to take over the US Embassy, intimidating everybody in their path. After seeing such savage attitudes, who can think that Goni and el Zorro will receive fair trials of "genocide?" No wonder they can claim persecution.
Jim's amateur apprentices continue to fudge the facts: "At approximately 1PM, after a series of confrontations between the protesters and the police, the latter began to shoot tear gas, forcing the protesters to disperse. Fortunately, there were no other incidents, although the force used by the police was called unnecessary by a government minister."
First of all, the amateurs don't mention this group wasn't a spontaneous reunion of indignant citizens representing all sectors of Bolivian society, but rather a bunch of thugs with their serfs paid to intimidate and destroy anything in their path.
Second, the amateurs are wrong stating that "fortunately" there were no incidents. No, it wasn't "fortunate." It was thanks to the bravery and professionalism of a police commander, who decided, despite the wishes of Morales' government to uphold the most basic norms of international law.
And just now we are finding out the utter incompetence of the Bolivian government and its Bolivian ambassador in the US -- who happens to be a journalist -- who after 2 years in office wasn't capable enough to find out the right procedures to request an extradition, just to mention one example of uselessness. What are these people doing in office? As usual, they'll assing blame to anything and everything besides themselves, oblivious to have played with the emotions of so many people who had so much hope for them, seemingly eons ago.
Next mission for the sovereign and (still) republic of Bolivia: beg for ATPDEA benefits.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Morales is Black Hole stupid
"The idea that the indigenous of the altiplano would need to be given money to support the Morales government..."
I Crause, I'm having trouble believing that you could be possibly be that naive. "street money" is a common tactic even in many parts of the United States to bring out the party "faithful" (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/11/nation/na-streetmoney11)...why would you honestly think that Bolivia would be any more pure?
There was plenty of video of people accepting fichas on local TV. Some were even complaining that they didnt receive theirs or werent given what was promised.
Bert
"I've heard the smear about Morales using kickbacks before.It was one of the main opposition lines of attack after a 2 million strong march on the outskirts of La Paz in support of his government "
Sorry, bud, but the 2million were NOT in support of Morales, but rather they were against moving the capital.
I think you might be living in reality. There has not been a march in support of Evo in over a year.
"It's telling how lefties are so quick to defend democratic values when democratically leftist leaders, no matter how corrupt or hated, are kicked out a la Chavez or Allende, yet are quick to defend as "popular revolts" when democratically elected leaders are kicked out a la Goni. Oh, yeah, and it's always the fault of the United Sates."
Chavez & Allende were corrupt and hated? Please explain (a) their unpopularity in their country and (b) the corruption. And the deposing of Goni and the coups against Chavez and Allende are hardly comparable.
Allende was murdered and a dictatorship was announced. Chavez was kidnapped and parliament dissolved. Goni resigned and fled the country, his deputy constitutionally took power and elections followed.
If we were to stretch your logic some more, we could say Watergate was anti-democratic for deposing Richard Nixon. And please don't try to label people "lefties" to increase your intellectual comfort zone. We are not all cartoons.
Aldo and Leny's work speaks for itself, as evidenced herein on this blog. These noble citizen-international journalists' informative article earned a badge of honor. Their article's merits were addressed by another ad hominem attack by the "professional" hack. Said "pro" reveals they are paid for comments when they attacked Aldo and Leni as "amateurs" (in contrast to one like who gets paid per word written on this blog). The question becomes who is paying that kook that attacked them (and who ends all their comments by defending Croats while attacking Evo)?
Probably they are paid in beer, pasta basica or some other substance which they abuse as evidenced by their comments, so deranged and Bush-like that they must be the result of years of substance abuse damage to neurons and axonal endings. Which is not unlike Bush after years of being a cokehead and alcoholic.
My guess is that that "pro" works for the KKK: Kroat Kook Klansmen.
"I used to think democracy was the best form to govern a country but ... should a larger more uneducated group of people (70%) be in charge of making decisions, running a country and voting?"
Norman, err I mean Duston Larson
For context as to why so much civil unrest directed at the US, meet Norman's evil twin, a man being investigated by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights as to charges of enslaving Guaranis. (It is not known if Norman is also being investigated for violating the human rights of indentured servant/slaves)
From Time Magazine:
Friday, May. 02, 2008
US RANCHER IN VIOLENT SHOWDOWN
By Jean Friedman-Rudovsky/La Paz
In his native Montana, Ronald Larsen's current legal straits might be the stuff of an old-fashioned Western movie: A cattle rancher who believes the government and its allies are unfairly trying to seize his land, and picks up a rifle to signal his displeasure. But in contemporary Bolivia, where Larsen makes his home, his recent clash with the authorities is but another instance of rising tension over land-ownership between, on the one hand, left-wing President Evo Morales and his supporters among Bolivia's indigenous population, and on the other, political opponents backed by the country's wealthy eastern elite.
"A small group of ranchers is preventing us from carrying out rightful land reform in the eastern region of Santa Cruz," says Bolivia's Vice Minister of Land, Alejandro Almaraz, who accuses Larsen of attacking his convoy this spring. "U.S.-born Ronald Larsen is leading this violent resistance." But critics counter that Morales is hyping the case to build support ahead of Sunday's referendum in Santa Cruz, where opposition parties are pressing for autonomy from the central government — and ahead of a constitutional referendum later this year on changes that include capping the amount of land that can be owned by a single individual in Bolivia.
Both the autonomy and land-reform issues have sparked violent unrest over the past year, pitting the largely white farmers and ranchers of Bolivia's more affluent lowland east against the impoverished indigenous majority who back Morales, himself an Aymara Indian and the nation's first indigenous President. Little surprise, then, that a national furor has erupted over a confrontation involving government officials and Larsen, 64, who along with his two sons, owns 17 properties totaling 141,000 acres throughout Bolivia, three times as much land as the country's largest city. (Larsen insists his holdings amount to less than 25,000 acres.)
Last month, when Almaraz and aides tried to pass through Larsen's Santa Cruz property — they insist it was the only route by which to reach to nearby indigenous Guarani residents to whom they were delivering land deeds — witnesses say the caravan was fired on by Larsen and his son Duston, 29. The incident was followed by two weeks of rancher roadblocks and violent protests that left 40 indigenous people injured.
Larsen, who arrived in Bolivia in 1968, told a La Paz newspaper that Almaraz's vehicle had entered his property at around 3 a.m. Almaraz, he said, "had not presented any identification. He was drunk and being abusive ... I quieted him with a bullet to his tire. That's the story." But the government insists this wasn't Larsen's first run-in with Almaraz: the rancher is accused of kidnapping the vice minister for eight hours in February. The two alleged incidents prompted the government to file a criminal complaint of "sedition, robbery and other crimes" against Larsen and his son two weeks ago. Prosecutors have yet to decide whether to press formal charges. Neither father nor son has responded publicly to the accusations, and neither responded to repeated requests by TIME for comment.
U.S.-educated Duston Larsen, referring to Morales' efforts to empower Bolivia's indigenous, wrote on his MySpace page in 2007, "I used to think democracy was the best form to govern a country but ... should a larger more uneducated group of people (70%) be in charge of making decisions, running a country and voting?" The fact that Duston, in 2004, won the Mr. Bolivia beauty pageant, in the eyes of many government supporters, puts him in the company of the country's European-oriented elite. (That same year, Miss Bolivia, Gabriela Oviedo, also from the country's east, suggested Bolivia shouldn't be considered an indigenous nation: "I'm from the other side of the country. We are tall, and we are white people, and we know English.") Morales backers say it is precisely this disdain for the indigenous that is driving what they call the secessionist agenda behind Sunday's autonomy referendum — which is not legally sanctioned by the National Electoral Court or recognized by the Organization of American States. But autonomy supporters say they're only seeking states' rights on questions such as taxation, police and public works. "This is a historic demand based on long-standing differences with a La Paz-based central government," says Edilberto Osinaga, managing director of the Chamber of Eastern Farmers.
Autonomy is favored by more than the two-thirds of Santa Cruz voters needed to pass, according to polls, and Governor Ruben Costas, a staunch Morales opponent, said recently that it would "give birth to a new republic." He has since denied that he implied a separatist movement for Santa Cruz or the other three eastern states: Beni, Pando and Tarija, which will hold similar votes this summer. But critics say the remark betrayed an underlying goal of the country's eastern elite: gaining total control over Bolivia's vast natural gas reserves and its most fertile land.
Conflict over land is also at the heart of the clash over a new draft constitution restricting an individual's land holdings to just under 25,000 acres — a profound challenge to the ownership pattern in a country where 10% of the population controls more than 90% of arable land. "This is an extremely problematic proposal," says Osinaga. "You impose those kinds of limits and watch how fast the economy crumbles and poverty grows."
Under its current land reform program, the Morales government has already given landless Bolivians deeds to 25 million acres (10 million hectares). Some analysts suggest that staging the autonomy referendums is simply a political device to give the easterners greater leverage in pressing Morales to renegotiate constitutional changes. Others fear the rising tension points to that classic Western movie resolution: a violent showdown.
Where was this in the news!
1. In addition to cartuchos and firecrackers the Sticks of dynamite were also thrown over the wall of the US embassy
2. The mobs /social groups were organized and paid by Morales's regime
3. The police were fighting for their lives and were attacked by the mobs before resulting to water and tear gas
"Where was this in the news!...dynamite were also thrown over the wall of the US embassy...'
Nowhere because you made it up. If not, Leny and Aldo would have posted a photo of the damage caused by the dynamite or mentioned it. Further, obviously, the right wing controlled media would have killed to have footage of the ruble within the US embassy, if "dynamite were also thrown". It would have been exploited throughout the media so as to frame Evo as operating in anarchy. This so as to invite intervention by a coup or foreign troops. Perhaps from the US fourth fleet which is headed south currently.
Now go back to looking for "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq and other Bush-Cheney spawned lies.
And stop spray painting "Autonomia" on the walls!
Grindio,
In the words of JJ. Walker
DYNO-MITE!!!!
and Fichas from Morales's Regime!
Breaking News headlines from your friendly local "right wing" media: "Fourth Fleet Soon to Patrol Lake Titicaca for Drugs",
or maybe it is an excuse for the Cheney to steal our water and gas?
Grindio you must be hitting the Coca Paste
el Grindio
WTF does any of this have to do with weapons of mass destruction
you're a hater dude
Get a life
I think El Grindio is discovery why few people challenge the conservative anti-Morales crowd that troll the DemocracyCtr comment boards, be they are delusional and racist psychos. Better to just ignore them or watch with enjoyment as their paper thin construction of reality comes crashing down around them.
Jim must really enjoy posting as "El Grindio"....
Answering 11:07 PM as to relevance:
The violent, racist Croat Clan-led insurgents in Bolivia's east operate in concert with and follow the playbook of the racists who work for Bush-Cheney, including and not limited to the US mission in Bolivia, particularly, Goldberg who would balkanize Bolivia as he did a certain country elsewhere. (One would think they would be busy polishing up their resumes so the door does not hit them on the way out when they get voted out of power in the forthcoming Democrat landslide.)
The lie about "dynamite" is the same as the lie about "weapons of mass destruction". The US mission in Bolivia operates in accord with the Bush-Cheney evil practices of deception and manipulation of media monopolies (like exist in Bolivia and the US) as confessed in various books by former White House insiders like Scott McClellan. The complicity of media monopolies to sell the colonial invasion/occupation of Iraq was sold in the same manner as the insurgent "autonomia" movement has been sold to an ignorant maleable public. In both cases the people believe what they see on tv (few read) and vote against their own interests after being conditioned to do so.
As to the comment of El Grindio being ghost written by Jim (apparently based on gratitude expressed toward this blog's staff): Don't know if that is meant as an insult to Jim or to the intellectual author of El Grindio. Nor do I know if that should be taken as an insult or a compliment.
Just go to this link and read:
http://achacachi.blogspot.com/2007/09/massacre-of-warisata-by-carlos-sanchez.html
DynO-Mite!!!
And Fichas from the Morales Regime
Can anyone tell me what are fichas?
Grindio,
Dude you're a paranoid hater. Bush-Cheney are about to send a brain washing machine to Bolivia to convince you all.
BTW actually read McClellan's book before you write your crappy lies.
The Bush-Cheney war machine have got much better places to scheme over, than such a tiny insignificant country like Bolivia. Please, you think they actually give a Shit about what happens down here.
Too much Coca Paste and illusions of self importance on your part.
BTW A couple of stickS of dynamite were thrown in addition to the cartouchos.
Grindio you're the ignorant lier MF
With all the crazy miners around like the one that blew himself and his wife up a couple of months ago Dynamite abounds like candy and a single stick will not bring down walls in the embassy
you Paranoid moron
"A Savagery that Disgraces the Country"
~ La Prensa
http://www.laprensa.com.bo/noticias/15-06-08/15_06_08_edit1.php
6:42PM,
Too funny, yet equally pathetic. I laughed; I cried. If your post were a movie I would give it one thumb up for the laughs you generate while rating an "R" because your mental illness makes you scary. Take your meds.
Within one post, you first claim "stickS of dynamite were thrown" and then you infer that there is no evidence of damage because "a single stick will not bring down walls in the embassy" meaning only "a single stick" was thrown. Which is it? So much dynamite was thrown that you wrote "stickS" with a capitalized "S" or no damage exists because only one phantom stick was thrown and "a single stick will not bring down walls"?
Oh, I get it! Within your mind all dynamite explodes like in a roadrunner/Wiley Coyote cartoon or ___________(insert favorite slapstick comedy movie here). That would be the cartoon or movie where the dynamite explodes and a buffoon is left with their face blackened and their sticking out straight. Funny stuff.
As to the geopolitical issues in play, Bush-Cheney by through Goldberg and his minions are clearly trying to bring down Evo so as to checkmate the democratic movements toward social justice. Their transparent schemes executed by their underlings in the US mission are a function of the old cold war era's domino theory. Bolivia may be an "insignificant country" to you but to Bolivian-Americans like myself, it is equally loved as is the United States (as set forth by the framer's intent in the US Constitution).
ERRATA:
"That would be the cartoon or movie where the dynamite explodes and a buffoon is left with their face blackened and their sticking out straight."
should have read as:
"... and their hair or fur sticking out straight."
You get the picture.
Grindio
Write what you want paranoid hater. Dynamite made it over the wall.
I bet even Goldberg doesn't give a shit about which direction the country goes, he just wants to go home.
Oh wait he's probably plotting about what other country go to dismantle when Obama or McCain send him. 'Cause the empire conspiracies know no end. you paranoid conspiracy dufus
And Dynamite was thrown over the wall you idiot.
What about the fichas?
Before commenting on why 80,000 Bolivians protested Bush shielding human rights violator Sanchez Berzain, some housekeeping regarding Anon 10:47PM's foul-mouthed rant: No evidence exists, thus an internet rumor about “dynamite” is more false diversionary, propaganda. It is as insignificant as the strawman issue regarding “fichas”, vouchers that may or may not have established union attendance during picket walking duty or some other 1st Amendment type of protected free speech like demonstrating in front of the US embassy. As to “Goldberg doesn't give a shit…”, he and the Bush-Cheney cabal are increasingly irrelevant.
They have done about as much damage as they can do.
Jim says tensions between Bolivia and the US are nothing new. But it is more than just that. Since I was a kid, the US has acted in an imperialistic way and supported dictatorships (Banzer), torture, and the oppression of Bolivia’s poor for the benefit of elites who profited from US or IMF funding by corruptly skimming it. Deals were done more to benefit the interest Citibank earned and Bolivian elites self-interests than if a project helped Bolivia. The foreign debt Bolivia was saddled with servicing kept it from helping its poor with education, health needs and infrastructure that builds a nation.
Bush is the most hated of US presidents and the most vile with torture/renditions issues. If he were president of Bolivia, he would have been impeached in that time-honored Bolivian way: recall voting with the feet in street demonstrations such as held before the embassy by 80,000 angry Bolivians.
Why don’t the democrats in congress hold Bush-Cheney accountable through US traditional processes? Probably because Democrats acquiesced thus are partially culpable. Instead they calculate Bush so destroyed the Republican brand that it is safer to do nothing and wait till they can just sweep the Republicans in the coming election. Besides they don’t have the votes to impeach. Bolivians find it despicable Bush is not being held accountable and he is not allowing them to hold Sanchez Berzain accountable.
False claims of dynamite or not, the US embassy was not damaged when compared to how Bush’s massive malfeasance significantly damaged American democracy by violating basic constitutional principles which unpunished dishonors heroes who fought, bled, died so that democracy could persevere.
80.000 Bolivians demonstrated to show their love of their democracy and their desire that its villains be held accountable. Where are the US demonstrations to hold Bush-Cheney accountable?
Zzzzzz
Grindio
Bla Bla Bla...
Continue on your paranoid Bush-Cheney "Rule the World" conspiracy ranting. Dude I also heard that W was going to stage another catastrophe so he can usurp the presidency permenantly. It's almost funny!
Dude you're a real paranoid hater!
Must have been up all night hitting, the Coca Paste and writing your response.
It's almost funny!
But seriously now, Dynamite WAS thrown over the wall
DinO-Mite!
and fichas from the Morales Regime
Did anyone of you read the Evo interview for Cosas?
There were some really disturbing declarations he made there. Started ok, the usual complains about a vast right wing conspiracy. But then it got interesting. First he says that one time he was in Lima, all he had on him was a pen and that he got mugged for the pen. Then he goes into a bit of a megalomaniac rant saying that he is concern about the family fightings, because most children in Bolivian consider him their real dad. And finally he shows hints of being a pedophile (I am not kidding on this one) saying that after he is done with the Presidency he will retire to the Chapare to grow coca and be with a fifteen year old?
WTF?
really disturbing stuff. Someone (Grindio?) should give Evo talking points and tell him to stick to them. Do we really want to know that our President has pedo tendencies? May be is just me, but has anyone read this interview? Am I the only that was shocked by it? May be I have living in the US too long and my sensibilities are too puritan.
You can't make this stuff up!
http://www.la-razon.com/versiones/20080615%5F006304/nota_283_614765.htm
Bowsie,
Velde himself said his data was shaky because lack of data sources and his study ends half way through the expenditure of FDI funds(1998). But, the interesting thing about Velde and this line of study is that FDI foreign investment has worked in most countries, done little to help in a few, and failed in Bolivia. The reasons seems to be the inflexible nature of Bolivia's job market. Basically the FDI money trained people some people with some education which increased their value and productivity. But the people further down the ladder were too uneducated to move up. In fact their increased productivity seems to have dropped the value of those below.
This Morales interview is the usual victimilogy and conspiratory rant from an egomaniac who believes he's relevant enough to be considered a target by the U.S.
Um, I don't think so.
He displays his usual arrogance and lack of understanding of basic economics and history. No wonder he considers a basketcase nation as Cuba and its dictator as something to strive for and Venezuela's shameless meddling in Bolivian affairs as simple solidarity.
His amateurish oral skills allow us to enjoy such doozies as "...the empire fought against the people, like Iraq." (Move over, Cervantes) By the way, can he even find Iraq in a map?
He also displays his autocratic colors when venting his rage against Carlos Mesa for having the temerity to allow prefects to be democratically elected.
Nothing knew from the stellar Perfect Latin American Idiot.
Finally, as distasteful and morally wrong it is for us civilized people to have a paunchy middle aged person having as a partner a 15 year old, his minions would consider him virile and macho. No surprises there, though. Regarding his own family, Morales has no morales. He's the typical deadbeat dad. How long has he neglected his own son?
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Morales is Black Hole stupid
No wonder there so many children sold into prostitution openly in El Alto...Evo, as a customer, probably doesn't want them disturb lest his supply of 15yr old girls is cut off.
Really disgusting.
C'mom Jim these girls that Evo is after are probably around the same age as your daughter or nieces. This issues is not about right vs. left, but right vs. wrong.
"But, the interesting thing about Velde and this line of study is that FDI foreign investment has worked in most countries, done little to help in a few, and failed in Bolivia. The reasons seems to be the inflexible nature of Bolivia's job market."
Yeah I would go along with that. I think that economic model was unsuitable for Bolivia from the start because of the demographics of the country and, lets face it, chronic corruption. A developmental model maybe would have been more suitable for Bolivia before it was let out to compete in the "free market".
Thanks for the considered response too. They're few and far between here sometimes.
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Goldberg should announce that the US embassy will move to Sucre.
Goldberg should announce that the US embassy will move to Sucre.
Since that embassy is a state of the art CIA listening post for much of South America, with over 1000 staff (time to state the obvious: not all are diplomatic staff), the chances of that are roughly zero.
Though Frank will tell you that's a conspiracy theory, and that opinion will be written down in the embassy some hours later.
...Since that embassy is a state of the art CIA listening post for much of South America, with over 1000 staff (time to state the obvious: not all are diplomatic staff...
More hearsay, as you admitted after adamantly stating that Carlos Sanchez Berzain was a Republican operative, bowsie?
Now, obviously not all staff in the US embassy are diplomats. (Surprise! How many embassies from countries around the world don't have covert operatives working there?)
What's interesting is that you apparently seem so knowledgeable of the US Embassy's staff number (over 1,000...what, is this Baghdad?) and of its supposed covert technological capabilities (state of the art CIA listenting post --who know what-- for much of South America).
Should we trust such detailed information? Hearsay, again?
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Morales is Black Hole stupid
In line with Bowsie's point, let's not forget the claim made by that anonymous commentator ("Kid Dy-NO-mite" for propagating unsupported claim that embassy was dynamited by protesters) that Bush-Cheney "have got much better places to scheme over, than such a tiny insignificant country like Bolivia"
Further, Bolivia's strategic importance is not just limited to use as a CIA listening post as shown by:
A) former ambassador Manuel Rocha actively campaigning against Evo in the presidential elections (result: Bolivian votes for Evo increased astronomically);
B) Bush ordering Goldberg to return to Washington so he could “consult” personally with Bush regarding the massive protest.
C) massive munitions intercepted at the airport when smuggled by a mule for a US embassy military leader under the cover story that it was for use as a hunter.
D) If Goldberg will not “consult” with Bush as to how to advance the bringing down of Bolivia's democratically elected president so that Chavez could be deprived of a key ally, why was Goldberg summoned to Washington when Bush should be attending the flood catastrophe in Iowa? see "U.S. ASKS ENVOY TO BOLIVIA TO COME HOME TO CONSULT" www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1627216320080616
You were right anon, nobody in Bolivia cares that Evo is a pedophile.
Grindio, you're back!!! Sorry I didn't respond to your shout-out earlier; I was in the states for a couple of weeks for my daughter's high school graduation. I figure she's probably about three to four years behind you. Hope you don't mind if I just pick up with your last posting. The whole "Bolivia's strategic importance" thing and "CIA listening post" is pretty comical. I never know when to take you seriously.
I'll ignore the Rocha thing from what... 2002? Concerning Goldberg being called back, I'm sure that is much more of a message to Bolivia than President Bush taking a personal interest in this. I'd be surprised if Goldberg got within a mile of Mr. Bush on this trip. Rice will probably see him though. As far as the massive munitions, you even got your supposed "Cover" story wrong. No one said "hunter". The 500 rounds of .45 pistol ammo were for sport shooting (see the IPSC web site www.ipsc.org. I personally prefer a smaller caliber, but to each his own
I actually was chuckling about that incident when I was in the states. I was at the Wal-Mart and a middle aged lady with two kids in tow walked up to the sports section counter asking for .30-30 ammo for her hubby. She knew her stuff too. Wanted to make sure she got decent soft nose jacketed rounds for maximum bullet expansion once it hit the target. Meanwhile her kids were checking out the high power air guns comparing models. The point is, in the US, gun ownership isn't a big deal and picking up 500 rounds means your planning a decent weekend in the field or at the range. Only an idiot would think you were going to use 500 rounds of .45 to overthrow a government.
As for the incident that led to this thread, I expect that the State Department took exception when the Bolivian government fired the only got who took his job seriously that day. Calling the ambassador back is polite a way of expressing displeasure.
Hey, give us a shout when your graduation date comes up. Best to you.
3:59PM wrote: "You’re right anon, nobody in Bolivia cares that Evo is a pedophile."
That is evidence of how co-conspirators (US Mission?) act in concert to advance defamatory lies about Evo and Bolivian values.
BACKGROUND:
Evo stated he has no time for marriage because he is already married to Bolivia. Yet after he is reported as saying when his term ends he will retire to his homestead with his charango and his quinceanera then the quinceanera part was taken out of context and used to spread lies. That’s just how Bush spread lies about “weapons of mass destruction” as justification for attacking and occupying Iraq’s oil fields with Haliburton and other “no bid” Republican political donors.
Since Bolivia's indigenous people historically died at an early age, it stand to reason that they formed families at an early age, as a survival measure. Thus an indian cultural value-early marriage to ensure maximum time parenting before (a likely early) death-was likely often expressed within the culture ideal of settling down with a "quinceanera". That is a cultural value many in longer living 1st world societies may not agree with just as many Bolivian indians do not agree with the idea that Cheney's daughter Mary Cheney-had a baby in 2006 with her lesbian lover Heather.
DEFINITIONS:
PEDOPHILIA/PAEDOPHILIA : "psychological disorder in which an adult experiences a sexual preference for prepubescent children". (World Health Organization, International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems: ICD-10 Section F65.4: Paedophilia)
AGE OF CONSENT: Like most of South America-except Argentina where it is 13-Bolivia's age of consent is 16 for males; 14 for females and also defined as just after reaching puberty under Article 308 of the Bolivian Penal Code(http://www.unifr.ch/derechopenal/ley.htm). Note : Mexico's age of consent is 9 y.o.
ARGUMENT: So where is the proof that Evo is a pedophile? Is this not another lie like Norman spreading the false story that Sucre was invaded by "Poncho Rojos" thus it was right for those racists to torture the campesinos who came in to town to attend Evo's gifting their communities with ambulances.
Evo is only guilty of using exaggerated rhetorical flourish by expressing someday he’ll retire with a girl year over the legal age since by then none might have his aging self. But then what do you expect? Without the benefit of higher education, he is limited to seeing life through the lens of his cultural and socio-economic context: that of a Bolivian Indian.
Evo's only salvation lies in maybe hooking up with an educated "older woman" like . . . Norman's daughter . However, since she already graduated high school, she is well on her way to being regarded as a spinster in Bolivia's indigenous culture. She may have to set out on a different agenda if she wants to successfully replace Norman as a financial source.
"This Morales interview is the usual victimilogy and conspiratory rant from an egomaniac who believes he's relevant enough to be considered a targe..."
Did he say egomaniac?
Crooked face ;-) and Co. are zombies who march in defense of the elite and their billions. But,they probably don’t have a p..t to p…s on because they spend their time ranting and raving on this site instead of seeking gainful employment. And, what’s even more pathetic is that these sons of… liberty, actually cowards whose manhood revolves around a keyboard, probably never even joined the army of their idol, the world’s policeman.
Lets Get back on topic...
Dyn-0-Mite! and fichas... prove they were not there! Grindio you Dufus
BTW Grindio, You Paranoid conspiracy Cook... Bush is on the way home from Europe. I'm sure he's got Goldberg standing at attention waiting for him... NOT!
The issue is security or lack there of for embassy pers. & property... Police chf getting fired by Evo for doing his job.
Other shit holes recently are also worrying the US State Dept.... Chad for example.
"massive munitions intercepted at the airport when smuggled by a mule for a US embassy military leader under the cover story that it was for use as a hunter"????
Dude you're hittin' the Coca paste and you're a lier too
Well I can see that the insult crowd is back again here, from both sides. It is a sad thing when the spam posts for Xanax make more sense than the comments.
People, can you grow up just a notch or two?
Anon said: More hearsay, as you admitted after adamantly stating that Carlos Sanchez Berzain was a Republican operative, bowsie?
Hey kid, easy with the hyperbole. If by "adamantly stating" you mean stating, being questioned, giving my sources as anecdotal and freely admitting the information for that claim was unreliable then yeah, I adamantly claimed it. I would have thought I would be given some slack for acknowledging the question and honestly admitting I was on shaky ground. How bad spirited of you.
Considering kid, that you simply ignore simple disproofs of your most outlandish claims, that would make you something of a hypocrite.
As for the US embassy, have you ever seen it? One look at it makes clear the amount of staff inside is at least in four figures. As for CIA activity, we know of the recruitment of Fulbright scholars and PeaceCorps volunteers in Bolivia by the CIA in the embassy in La Paz. As reported here by ABC news. We know of the claims made in the exposé Diary of an Economic Hitman about NSA listening operations from the La Paz, Embassy. Bolivia: Between a Rock and a Hard Place interviews ex-staff who confirm a large presence of CIA and NSA staff, and the installation of a listening post for Bolivia and surrounding countries. We know the CIA has a highly involved recent history in Bolivia, what with being the key player in growing the Coke trade and providing secure transportation. The fights between the DEA and CIA operatives in the La Paz embassy are the stuff of legend, and incidentally, Senate Intelligence Committee investigations.
Don't get me wrong Anon, I don't think the US has such a massive influence on Bolivian goings on today but I do think they have a huge and unjustified intelligence presence in Bolivia.
Now, obviously not all staff in the US embassy are diplomats. (Surprise! How many embassies from countries around the world don't have covert operatives working there?)
I don't know Anon, justifying a covert presence by "everybody is doing it" is kinda weak. I could safely say my country has no covert operatives in any of it's worldwide embassy's.
And finally, even without any of the above evidence, the dogs on the street of La Paz are aware of the CIA and NSA presence in the La Paz Embassy. It's one of the cities worst kept secrets. Anybody whose lived in the English speaking community in La Paz has bumped into these cronies at one point or another, and they're not that clever.
Bowsie:
You still haven't stated how you know the number of staff in the US embassy. I searched around and couldn't find it. Hearsay?
The supposed "spygate" matter you're referring to has been discussed previously. The offending officer has been recalled back to the US and the State Department apologized. There are plenty of testimonies of other Peace Corps and Fulbright alumni stating they were never asked to spy. Besides, how do you know the CIA was involved in this? Hearsay?
By the way, your sources such as the US hater author of "...Hitman..." and from the other book prove nothing. It doesn't prove that the (you say) CIA has a (you say) state of the art listening (you say) facility (you say) for much of South America in the (you say) US embassy.
To be knowledgeable of the exact location and technological capabilities of such secretive operatives requires a top security clearance. Many of these clearances are compartmentalized, meaning that they're only allowed to have knowledge of a certain part of a whole operative, never knowing about another one. Those who have or had these types of clearances risk prison if they disclose information that might affect the national security of the US.
So, I ask: what was the level of security clearances of the "ex-NSA staff" you referred to and of the author of "Economic Hitman" that would make them privy to all this detailed sensitive data that could risk them prison time?
You also mentioned the CIA is/was a (you say) key player in the cocaine trade. Suppose your statement is true: Considering the hundreds of tons smuggled into the US in 3 decades, let's say a "key" player would be responsible for 100 tons. Any proof the CIA was "key" for that smuggling? Any proof its mission is to be involved in drug trade?
Finally (sorry for the long response), you are pretty confident your country's (which one?) embassies are not involved in spying. Any proof otherwise, or more hearsay?
Actually, although your answers are not satisfactory, I do give you credit for your civilized and measured responses, something lacking in this blog.
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Morales is Beni's Katrina
Morales is a pedophile (we'll see if this one sticks)
as a US Taxpayer, I certainly DO HOPE that the US Embassy in Bolivia IS actually doing some spying. I would hate to find out that they are gathering intelligence about Bolivia from a Chalabi type person.
Regarding covert ops in Bolivia, if you really want to find out who they are, it's fairly easy. However, I do not think it is legal for us to say point out the pubs they hang out or the school they send their kids to. It is fairly obvious what these are, since it is a very small country.
Having talked to some people who have visited other embassies, they have told that the one in Bolivia is huge. This would make it a candidate for being a local hub. I know from my experience, that the World Bank also intended for the Bolivian branch to be a hub. But it is not due to some huge strategic value, but simply logistics. Centrally located country, cheap labor and relatively "safe". Afterall Bolivia is probably the only country in South America where the children of diplomats can go out withouh armed escort.
Allakhazam. I haven't seen this level of debate since one of John McCain's town hall meetings (warning: poor attempt at sarcasm).
Anon. I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.
You still haven't stated how you know the number of staff in the US embassy. I searched around and couldn't find it. Hearsay?
OK, from my previous post it's not hearsay. I am basing this not on official figures but by using my eyes, looking at the building, seeing that it is massive and could accommodate at least 1500 people, and extrapolating that it contains over 1000. Some people may call this outlandish logic, but there's the entire basis of this claim. Take it or leave it.
The supposed "spygate" matter you're referring to has been discussed previously. The offending officer has been recalled back to the US and the State Department apologized. There are plenty of testimonies of other Peace Corps and Fulbright alumni stating they were never asked to spy. Besides, how do you know the CIA was involved in this? Hearsay?
So it was the one or two isolated incidents that happened to get caught, just the ones that got caught and now the nasty guy who was working on his own with no US policy attached has gone home and it's all over? Some over (loyal) US citizens say they weren't approached? Well if I had been approached to secretly spy for the US embassy (secretly spy usually means working for some kind of intelligence agency, lets call them the CAI), had secretly spied, and then was asked if I had secretly spied I might say something like this: "I wasn't asked to secretly spy, secretly". We're talking about credibility here champ, and unfortunately the big power up north has none when it comes to honesty (see Iraq: lying about). This is Alice in Wonderland stuff...
By the way, your sources such as the US hater author of "...Hitman..." and from the other book prove nothing. It doesn't prove that the (you say) CIA has a (you say) state of the art listening (you say) facility (you say) for much of South America in the (you say) US embassy.
He's a US hater is he? Remind me to use that to counter any whistle-blowers you bring up. The author is who he says he is, has done what he says he has done and that makes his evidence credible. So when he says there is a listening post in the US Embassy I call that credible evidence, not 100% proof but evidence. If you are calling this hearsay then we have a difference of opinion on what countenances credible evidence and might as well stop here. I would suggest your disbelief is centred on ideology though.
So, I ask: what was the level of security clearances of the "ex-NSA staff" you referred to and of the author of "Economic Hitman" that would make them privy to all this detailed sensitive data that could risk them prison time?
Champ I have no idea. Read the book I guess. Plenty of people have whistle-blown evidence in the past. How do you think Ollie North got in trouble?
You also mentioned the CIA is/was a (you say) key player in the cocaine trade. Suppose your statement is true: Considering the hundreds of tons smuggled into the US in 3 decades, let's say a "key" player would be responsible for 100 tons. Any proof the CIA was "key" for that smuggling? Any proof its mission is to be involved in drug trade?
Suppose this is true? Suppose this is true? Is this a joke? A holy joke? The head of the DEA who resigned ten years ago after 20 years of fighting drugs in South America said his biggest obstacle in fighting drugs was the CIA. They sold arms to Iran to finance black operations, they did the same with cocaine. Their level of involvement in Bolivia is extensive. Didn't Banzer's wife have nickname referring to Coke from all the business she did with the CIA? And none of this is conspiracy Anon, there's been multiple Senate investigations into it. Put the words "Cocaine", "CIA" & "Bolvia" into google and look up the senate reports yourself. Here's one to get you started.
Honestly Anon, if you're going to badger me about providing proof of CIA activity in Bolivia then deny the scale of CIA activity in the coke trade then you've get a very obvious credibility problem. Fair is fair here meet me half way.
Finally (sorry for the long response), you are pretty confident your country's (which one?) embassies are not involved in spying. Any proof otherwise, or more hearsay?
I'm Irish. The only secret operatives we've had are in comedy movies.
Actually, although your answers are not satisfactory, I do give you credit for your civilized and measured responses, something lacking in this blog.
You are an ideologue. My answers will never be satisfactory for you. See kid I wouldn't even call myself left-wing, but accepting extensive CIA activity in Bolivia is a matter of logic not politics.
Anon, the DEA guy was Michael Devine, 25 year vet of the agency.
He said the CIA were the biggest obstacle to wiping out drugs in South America. He wrote a book: The Big White Lie.
Michael Levine's earlier book, Deep Cover, occasionally mentioned CIA double-dealing in the war against drugs. Now this theme is his central thesis. Levine is a 25-year veteran of the Drug Enforcement Administration, whose career included undercover work in Argentina at the time of the 1980 "Cocaine Coup" in Bolivia. In this book Levine places his anti-drug war in its proper context, and concludes that it was futile. In Argentina the CIA was assisting a brutal junta, which was responsible for "disappearing" its own citizens, and in Bolivia the scheming of longtime CIA asset Klaus Barbie helped put Luis Arce Gomez into power. To top it off, the well-connected Argentinean and Bolivian fascists behind it all just happened to be some of the same people that boy scout Levine was trying to bust. Needless to say, he didn't get his merit badge, and was ordered back to headquarters.
Back in the U.S. by early 1982, working out of DEA headquarters, Levine was disillusioned. DEA was harassing him with a nit-picking internal affairs investigation while drug lords were running governments. Levine settled for working a sting to entice Bolivia's queen of cocaine, Sonia Atala, into a U.S. prison. But she too was CIA-protected, and ended up in the witness protection program, waiting to return to Bolivia with all of her vast property holdings intact.
Bowsie, the sources you provide are so Cold War 1970s and 1980s. Banzer, Barbie, do you have anything more recent?
By the way, I've repeatedly stated that the so-called Drug War is a failure because it only causes death, violence, and corruption. My belief is drugs should be legalized.
I've read Devine's books, and although he has plenty of gripes with other US agencies (he's particularly tough with US Customs), he never implied that the CIA was some sort of drug cartel.
When I asked you how you know the US Embassy has a CIA facility with a state of the art listening to most of South America, you provided a couple of sources. (Okay, forget one is a US hater. Not relevant) When I ask you if they have the clearance that would allow them to such sensitive information, you respond that you have no idea and that I should rather read their books. Geez, thanks for your help! I thought you might have read them.
You see where I'm going at? More hearsay.
I'm not even going to go into your logic that the old "Bush lied, people died" mantra or how your would behave is someone would approach you to spy for them as evidence the US Embassy is a spy recruiting station. Again, not relevant.
That Bolivia was a pawn (as many other countries) in Cold War politics is undeniable. It continues to be the stage of an ideological battle. However, don't pretend that it's only the big bad US who has ever tried to exert its influence in Bolivia. The Soviets and Cubans have done so blatantly, and now even much more the Venezuelans.
Finally, I like Irish comedy. No secret there. Go Celtics!
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Morales is Beni's Katrina
Morales is a pedophile
Anon, I have provided sources in my posts for the CIA activity claims. You have dubbed them irrelevant because they are a "hater of the US". I rest my case on that one. So comfort yourself with hearsay claims if it makes you feel better.
I'm not even going to go into your logic that the old "Bush lied, people died" mantra or how your would behave is someone would approach you to spy for them as evidence the US Embassy is a spy recruiting station. Again, not relevant.
Of course it's relevant when you use Embassy press releases to prove the spying was limited. Because it suggests that official claims from the Embassy cannot be believed. If this is not relevant, I am a coconut.
That Bolivia was a pawn (as many other countries) in Cold War politics is undeniable. It continues to be the stage of an ideological battle. However, don't pretend that it's only the big bad US who has ever tried to exert its influence in Bolivia. The Soviets and Cubans have done so blatantly, and now even much more the Venezuelans.
Hey hey slow up a minute. I was not making any moral judgement on US involvement in Bolivia. I was simply stating they have extensive intelligence activity there. I'm not focusing on the US per se, this spun off Berzaín and his protection from the US. Though it's safe to say US espionage in Bolivia massively dwarfs that of any other country. Put please, don't put me in your "US hater" category. I used to live there too once upon a time, loved my time there and the people, just a pity the foreign policy of the government kinda sucks.
And Anon, lets not compare Operation Condor with Venezuela and Bolivia today, two democracies in a consensual relationship. You may not like it, but the democratically elected government does. Hell the states has a hell of a lot of pull on my country, but I wouldn't compare it to Operation Condor. Steady on old boy!
Operation Condor was a good thing. In the same way that Hiroshima was a good thing.
I am not against the US or Venezuela trying to meddle in Bolivian affairs. I actually applaud them because they do so looking after their own.
I wish Bolivian leaders would actually do more of this. Try to influence the policies of foreign nations for the benefit of Bolivia. Not what they do now, which is simply reacting. For example Evo's letter against EU immigration restrictions, too little too late. He should have been actively lobbying long before this was even a consideration.
Or even better...who the hell was Ambassador to the UN when they declare coca illegal?
Bowsie, I never claimed you were a "US hater", and I said that the author of "..Hitman.." being one was not relevant to disprove him.
What I am looking for are facts. Let's dissect this again.
You stated that "...We know of the claims made in the exposé Diary of an Economic Hitman about NSA listening operations from the La Paz, Embassy. Bolivia: Between a Rock and a Hard Place interviews ex-staff who confirm a large presence of CIA and NSA staff, and the installation of a listening post for Bolivia and surrounding countries. We know the CIA has a highly involved recent history in Bolivia, what with being the key player in growing the Coke trade and providing secure transportation..."
I simply asked for proof if the author and the ex-NSA dude (does he have a name?) had any clearance levels that would allow them access to such sensitive information about the CIA having listening posts in the US Embassy. You replied that you had no idea and that I should read their books. Let's say that's not a convincing response.
Another explanation of your statement is you provide a hypothetical of how you would react if someone would ask you to spy for them. Not too convincing, either. Another rationale is that since the US (yawn) "lied" to invade Iraq, the US Embassy must be lying regarding whatever it posts.
Regarding the "recent" and "key" CIA involvement in the drug trade, you not only provided information 20-30 years old, but you failed to show the who, what, when, where, how, and why it became a key player, being involved in such complex operations such as production and transportation.
Finally, on one hand, you say you're passing no moral judgement on US involvement in Bolivia, but shortly afterwards you mention Operation Condor? Hmm.
Sorry, but you're a coconut.
;-)
The Croats are Morales Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
PS I wouldn't travel to other parts of Europe if I were you. The Irish aren't liked very much there right now. EU voting stuff.
I referred anon 2:22PM as KKK: "Kroat Klan Kook". Maybe it's a clever disguise (as a Croat-loving internet kook/hack) for a CIA mole who surfaced (in terms of agenda) to launch a somewhat effective yet mediocre defense: muddling the issues?
Naw, the CIA isn't so dumb as to hire someone so ignorant and with undeveloped argumentative writing skills. Whereas the cambas, being dumb, are capable of scraping the bottom of the barrel for their goons/shock troops/hacks. See UCJ.
On the other hand, it appears the US Mission in Cochabamba (on Avenida America) has Frank IBC working for it. So anything is possible.
Thus I shall refer to anon 2:22PM as "Mole" since they anonymously serve the agenda of the US mission/CIA or the Croat-led insurrection: bringing down Bolivia's democratically elected government or making it ineffectual so as to not bring social justice or change from the status quo. For pay or for free Mole clutters bandwidth with his tag, "The Croats are...".
Mole: Prove the CIA no longer smuggles drugs to finance "black ops".
In the youtube link below is expert witness evidence from Bush's head of the DEA (on CBS' 60 minutes).
One can see this expert witness testimony (DEA's ex chief confession) that the CIA smuggled about a ton of drugs. And that it must smuggle drugs because of their need to finance their nefarious evil schemes termed "black ops". Which means they are still doing, just not getting caught at it.
45 seconds long:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JR8s-mIj9BM&feature=related
Bowsie makes the case about the CIA as a harmful global actor. Mole responds by moving the goalposts:
"you failed to show the who, what, when, where, how, and why it became a key player, being involved in such complex operations such as production and transportation."
As to "who...why [CIA] became" the evil organization that they are:"Secrets of The CIA-Bolivia" contains documentary footage at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAUfWxt0q4M&NR=1
As to "who, what, where..." get copies of the transcripts of the Miami grand jury that indicted the CIA's General Ramon Guillen Davila, who "led a CIA counter-narcotics program that put a ton of cocaine on U.S. streets in 1990."
As to the burden of proof being on Mole to establish the CIA stopped smuggling drugs to finance their black opeations, consider the CIA gulfstream jet-used for their flights between the east coast and Guantanamo-which crashed with FOUR tons of cocaine on board, as set forth here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oszATUJ4IRE&feature=related
Obviously a commentator will provide an alibi or cover story not unlike Norman and the story about how .45 ammo was for some type of sport shooting instead of for hand off to UCJ or Santa Cruz insurgents for civil war or assasination purposes. Yeah, right, .45 ammo is intended for killing and maiming, not for target practice because of the damage it causes.
Mole, we're waiting for your proof.
Grindio, you’re boring and unoriginal, just as your writing and sources.
Yawn.
;-)
The Croats are Morales’s Jews
Beni is Morales’ Katrina
Allow me to drift off topic and respond to E-G. E-G, have you ever been to a shooting range? When I was stationed at Camp LeJeune, I purchased a Beretta 92F 9mm handgun. Why did I choose that weapon? Because the Beretta is the same weapon I would be issued in the field or combat. I wanted to be as proficient as possible. As do most professional military officers, I took marksmanship seriously and took the time to improve my skills with my T/O weapon. Now, can you guess what the issue weapon was for officers when the Colonel entered service? It was the venerable .45. I didn't much care for it back in the early 80's. While much more powerful than a 9mm, I didn't think it was that accurate. Then around 1990 I got to fire one that wasn't 50 years old It was impressive and as accurate as mine. Pick up a handgun magazine and you'll find that that the .45 ACP handgun is still in favor. Go to a pistol range and you'll see plenty of them. One more thing... as powerful as the .45 is, no handgun would ever hold a candle to a decent rifle. If the Colonel really wanted to start something, he would not be bringing in .45 ammo; he'd be bringing in 5.56 or 7.62, and a lot more than 500 rounds. Stick to your major and leave the weapons analysis to others. BTW, I can't believe you took a dig at my daughter. Too funny. Tell Evo not to hold his breath though; my girl likes guys who have at least completed high school.
Normy,
If push ever comes to shove and I must explain the facts of life to the bad guys (likely candidates, UCJ gangster-wannabes), beloved brother, you shall be one of my picks as to who shall be "packing". (Remember to stop by the embassy to pick up your ration of .45 ammo, for hunting. . . err "sport shooting" ... or was that "for the shooting range". Whatever, I'll leave the cover stories to you since your well rehearsed in that. )
As to your daughter, no "dig" intended. You must be proud of her. Justifiably so since clearly her admiration of you is such that she seeks a fellow just like you. A fellow with your specific academic acomplishments as evidenced by you defining her as: "girl likes guys who have at least completed high school".
"Completed high school"? That of course, puts yours truly in the running. Fortunately for her, E.G.'s heart is already committed. Which is unfortunate for a certain young Ukrainian angel (with inner beauty that equals her outer beauty); a relationship facilitated by common ground based on a Christian church's work in the Ukraine.
Readers,
How about anon 7:08PM aka "Mole" or "KKK" (Kroat Klan Kook) and his tiresome selective refutation. Or, rather, absence of refutation.
Mole subjects Bowsie to line by line refutation, ending in a request for specifics. When provided the specific evidence, Mole goes George W. Bush on us with the internet's version of a deer caught in headlights: the weakest of glib responses in the form of ad hominem attacks that fail to address the evidence presented. Pathetic.
But then we're still in the Bush era and that is to be expected from their underlings while their handlers are busy crafting cunning misrepresentations to put on their resumes in advance of the Democrats forthcoming landslide.
Just because the idea of falsifying evidence in front of the UN, lying to an electorate to justify a foreign invasion and breaking international law and protocol appears to bore you as a line of reasoning doesn’t render it useless. Amazingly, despite your suggestions, Bowsie manages to refrain from commentary regarding Plan Condor, merely stating that it cannot be compared to the wilful collusion between two democratically elected governments. Given that Bowsie has displayed extensive knowledge of Bolivian politics and US foreign policy I’m sure he would have appreciated our man’s reminder of his own country’s No vote in the Lisbon Treaty. Great advice there. Incidentally, virtually the same agreement was rejected by Dutch and French voters three years ago and Ireland, as the only country to have been given an opportunity to actually vote on the thing, is far from a pariah as a consequence of expressing her democratic will.
Tom is Morale’s Cruise
Rennie is Morale’s choice a heartburn relief
Morale is bringing the chompa back into style…
Anon 4:19, I actually admire the Irish. The "land of pubs and drunks" have one of the more dynamic economies in the world thanks in part thanks to low corporate taxes and a modern vision of a globalized world.
I applaud the cojones they had regarding the Lisbon Treaty. Cheers!
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Anon 4:19, I actually admire the Irish. The "land of pubs and drunks" have one of the more dynamic economies in the world thanks in part thanks to low corporate taxes and a modern vision of a globalized world.
I applaud the cojones they had regarding the Lisbon Treaty. Cheers!
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
I voted Yes to the treaty...
Operation Condor was a good thing. In the same way that Hiroshima was a good thing.
In the same way that words have no meaning.
Hey, didn't you favor the end of WWII?
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
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Hey Grindio,
First Dyn-O-Mite goes over the wall at the embassy
Then C-4 blows up a TV station ~ Thanks to Evo with a little help from his friend Chavez
I'm sure W will grant him asylum too after he is runs out of the country in Chavez's helicopter
Readers,
Anon 12:28AM never provides any evidence that protestors dynamited the embassy, despite my repeated requests for him-in essence-to put up his evidence or shut up.
Nor does there exist any evidence linking what amounts to a glorified firework explosion-that did not damage a right wing TV station-and a certain rented car to Evo's democratically elected government. The above is an incoherent smear campaign, nothing more; nothing less.
In contrast to that, you (the reader) can view DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE of Anon 12:28's cohorts (Sucre neo-fascists, outside agitators and paramilitary interventionists from Santa Cruz's UCJ) as they hurl and explode dynamite cartridges at Bolivian soldiers who were under orders not to fire back. Even in self-defense!
SEE the evidence at link below but first some context:
Cesar Brie, the award winning, world famous theater director-playwrite and founder of Bolivia's prestigous "Theater of the Andes" was shocked by the racist violence directed at innocent campesinos in Sucre. He documented it. He bravely-at risk to himself and his family-spoke out against it. Now he produced a documentary that allows you the reader to view-from an eyewitness' perspective-the inhumane atrocities directed at poor rural farmers seeking to participate in Bolivia's fledgling democracy.
To censor it, the powerful, racist Sucre oligarchy-by and through their agents-caused Bolivia's channel 7 to not be able to transmit said documentary when it was scheduled to air.
Red Erbol, a network of radio stations and teaching institutions that specialize in communication, provides us with a link that allows you to download the entire documentary that Sucre racists censored. The link is on Erbol's front page at:
http://www.erbol.com.bo/
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