Bolivia Book Presentation in Sucre Thursday
On Thursday, July 31, the Center for Independent Media in Sucre will be hosting a public presentation of The Democracy Center's newly released book, Dignity and Defiance: Stories from Bolivia's Challenge to Globalization (the Spanish edition). We hope that all our friends, and detractors as well, who are in Sucre will come for an evening of presentation, video and debate.
Here are the details:
Presentation: Dignity and Defiance: Stories from Bolivia's Challenge to Globalization
When: Thursday, July 31 at 7pm
Where: El Salón Picasso de la Fundación Pachamama (Calle Uyuni esq. Calama)
Sucre, Bolivia
Presenters and Commenters:
Jim Shultz, Executive Director, The Democracy Center
Jimena Dávalos, Defensora del Pueblo de Chuquisaca
Antonio Abal Oña, Independent Journalist
Admission Free
As a reminder, the entire book in Spanish is available for free on The Democracy Center Web site here. The U.K. edition of the book from Merlin Press will be published and available in October and the U.S. edition from University of California Press will be published in January 2009. A short video trailer for the book can be viewed here.
Labels: Dignity-and-Defiance
posted by The Democracy Center at 12:21 PM
The Democracy Center, based in Cochabamba Bolivia and San Francisco California, works globally to advance human rights through a combination of investigation and reporting, training citizens in the art of public advocacy, and organizing international citizen campaigns. If you like the Blog, consider becoming a subscriber to The Democracy Center's free e-newsletter by sending us an email at 
57 Comments:
Any plans for a Santa Cruz stop?
Jim,
Congratulations to you and your staff are in order based on your impressive trailer for the book.
I understand your objectivity compels your video to be more like documentarian Frederick Wiseman's "The Hospital" than Michael Moore's "Sicko". However, for cityfolk, some context might clarify the meaning of your visual images, like in the case of the baby llamas.
PS. "Professor" Miguel Cintella or Miguel's proxies who seek to poach Jim's readership for Miguel's careerist agenda or use Jim's blog as a platform for Miguel or others on the margins of the "Bolivian analysts" business. This is a good topic for linking video trailers for the books Miguel has written on Bolivia.
(cue sound of crickets chirping)
Oh, I forgot. Miguel hasn't written any books.
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It's good to be a rich A-rab.
A sheik sent his Lamborghini on a 6,500-mile round trip to Britain for an oil change service.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1493291.ece
Oh, Grindio! Is this the same Grindio who called me a genetically inferior half breed? Or the one who called my wife a "fat white" (she is white, she was pregnant)?
Sure, I'll take the bait. Yes, I'm on the margins of the Bolivia analysis "business" (didn't realize there was money to be had in it). But having only recently (2007) finished my dissertation on Bolivia, I'm working on turning it into a book. Of course, pesky interruptions like teaching political science, moving, and having a baby have slowed down the editing/writing process. But I hope to have the book out in 2009. I'll let you know, since you're so interested.
In the meantime, please help advance my careerist agenda by reading a paper I'll deliver to the American Political Science Association in a few weeks:
http://mcentellas.com/docs/apsa2008.pdf
It's based on an project funded by the National Science Foundation for the next three years (don't worry, I'm on the primary investigator, just part of a research team).
Oh, and my article on "pure" presidentialim in Bolivia (as opposed to "parliamentarized" presidentialism) comparing/contrasting Mesa & Evo will appear in a forthcoming issue of the academic journal, The Latin Americanist.
How's that for careerist poaching?
As for Jim's book. I of course congratulate him on the accomplishment. I wonder if they'll be a La Paz exhibition soon? I'm sure my friends at ILDIS would like to attend.
EG can't answer now.He's tooo busy mopping the cafeteria.
hahahahahaha
Don't mind grindio Miguel. Unfortunately he suffers from that very common disease but yet to be named disease found mostly in Bolivia. You know the one I'm talking about?
Symptons include: being extremely offended by the success of others, believing that only they know the truth, and of course criticizing and destroying other people's work, while having a head that can only take in alcohol and not new perspectives. The most common sympton includes calling a succesful person a cheat, hack or thief.
Grindio is probably an undergrad in a liberal career an UCLA or similar institution. He probably thinks that the fact that he goes to college and can read english somehow makes him superior. It is clear that he has difficulties getting attention from the opposite sex (he might be gay - not that there's anything wrong with that) or just being noticed in general. He is a poser who claims to have enjoyed an endless summer, but chances are that he's never ridden the waves down-under, in the Cape. He probably doesn't even know the difference between a long board vs a short board. Just like that, he doesn't know the difference between blogging and actually trying to get published in a journal.
Don't try so hard Grindio, life is like surfing, kicking and splashing around will never give you the perfect wave.
Congrats on having a paper publish. Some of us work years doing research and the best we get is having Mr. Harvard hot shot professor credit your department as a whole in a footnote....now grindio, please react in your so predictable ways...and please do send the amazon.com or lexis-nexis link to your extensive work.
Setting aside Miguel's appeal to pity, hyperbole-laden intro, sure, Miguel has reason to have hurt feelings that Jim's blog is so...so much more successful, in terms of credibility and readership than his blog. But then Jim and his staff write about the exigencies of this key moment in Bolivia and the world. By contrast, Miguel's model appears to be some recycled freshman composition level paper wherein he was asked: "Compare and contrast...(plug in Mesa and Evo here).
Miguel has a blog that is on the periphery of Bolivian blogs thus it lacks this blog's dynamics. In that sense, Miguel's blog reflects his career and unless he does some deep thinking in terms of how his writing can cross the threshold of significance, he will never be the financially successful author that other professors are, like Cornel West. Why? Simple, Miguel has nothing substantive or significant to say that meets a need. My speech and debate coach in college once stated that the first threshold issue we had to address was "so what". In contrast to Jim and his staff's colorful, timely and significant blogs, books and video trailers, Miguel's writings merit a collective shrug. He just does not get it.
When Miguel has his say, he distorts facts like in his whinny intro above. Pathetic.
Apparently, justifiably sensitive Miguel extrapolated and twisted generic comments into ad hominems about his feelings of inadequacy and what he perceives to be an opinion on his wife's unattractiveness. That was not the case. (His wife probably has a very nice personality).
Anon 10:17AM, The general idiocy in this blog becomes troubling when one reads comments from individuals who hold themselves out as supposedly having some college level education. The initial shock of the revelation subsides and at least it can be a source of embarrassing entertainment that imbeciles on this blog write in a manner akin to witnessing a train wreck in slow motion.
Your superficial conclusions about me-based on my comments-are neither well thought out nor well written: your university's administration should file for injunctive relief to restrain you from ever naming it as your alma mater since it clearly jeopardizes the academic reputation of the university, at least at the margin. Your idiotic missive shows your intelligence is poisoned by lack of reason, immature emotions and ignorant hatred.
Your initial comments concerning surfing displays an uneducated mind of a beginning to intermediate surfer: in the age of tow-ins and boating to outer reefs, surfing "down under" for an “endless summer” is no measure of a surfer's acumen. Further, as a Bolivian, obviously my few "endless summers" were spent surfing Venezuela, Peru, Ecuador, Argentina and/or Brazil during Hawaii's winter which are generally not to be missed for the size and quality of its surf at Pipeline, Honolua Bay, Hanalei Bay or Sunset Beach. Since said spots were my home breaks at one time or another, in terms of surfing, eat your heart some more for I surfed 3rd reef Pipeline and many perfect days there and you didn't. As to surfing "down under", surfing Tahiti or Fiji's outer reefs is preferable to Jeffrey's Bay in South Africa with my buddy (former world champ) Shaun Thompson or Kirra in Australia with my other bro (former world champ) Occy since EG is a goofy foot.
As for your bizarre effort to raise a gay issue, those on this blog that are gay should know that Judeo-Christian theology holds it as an abomination to God, according to God. Thus, if one is gay, they should know that they are at risk (regardless if they practice safe sex). They should not consider this notice as a judgment or condemnation against them for its purpose is only to inform and put them on notice.
By nature or nurture, for those obsessed with curiosity of his sexual orientation, Grindio is a recovering Lady's man.
Understanding God does not regard seducing women very highly either has led to segueing from bachelorhood to a long engagement with a certain, beautiful Ukrainian novia.
As for your "years doing research" to publish that which will likely never get read much. I'm glad that works for you.
On success of others, one of the saddest moments I recently experienced was learning that Norman apparently lives in dire poverty according to his self-described standard of living (beat up car & small tv). Apparently, Norman drank the Bush kool-aid yet did not invest in Halliburton, Bechtel or the other transnationals to whom the US wealth was transferred by way of no bid contracts. The Bush kook aid victimized Norman apparently by having his military pension paid in increasingly worthless dollars. It would have been preferable if Norman had a chance to be counted among my wealthy friends-a source of economic and social opportunities- and enjoyed large screen HD or owned one-of-a-kind race cars/collector cars like this author. But then that took knowing Bush would bankrupt the US and investing accordingly without supporting Bechtel et al (with CDs in foreign currencies and buying gold or gold coins, in terms of passive investments).
As for your closing ad hominem attack on me: My parents work ethic instilled in me the most important ingredient along with certain socio-economic relationships to my becoming a person of leisure a very early age. Thus for "extensive work", provide your link when you look up the recently posted El Grindio on facebook and (when time allows) on myspace, there photos will be posted showing production stills and maybe my cars or home's gated entry with its statue on the arch at the entrance to my abode and the small marble stature I recently had placed nearby.
Bottom line: you wish you were me with my higher standard of living, my access to glamorous night life and leisure time when I wish to schedule it. On an anonymous blog, I’m not here to make friends nor is it all about me; its about building a democracy from the bottom up in Bolivia. If someone like myself can bother to stop and seek to share of himself with those less fortunate in Bolivia who lack economic or social networks that provide opportunities because there but for the luck of the draw and certain circumstances would be I, then you who regard yourself as better than I should do more to help build a participatory democracy in Bolivia.
Please return to your vacuous idiocy as it is-as stated-embarrassing entertainment.
Speaking of writing tomes:
US expatriates who live or do business in or with Bolivia or Latin America do well to vote for Obama based on the differences between his thoughtful position paper regarding Latin America (linked below) and McCain's (he doesn't have one which says volumes of his lack of capacity for presidential governance):
McCain's position paper (insert sound of crickets chirping here):_____________________;
Obama's position paper (get cup of coffee, first before starting this 13 pager): http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/Fact_Sheet_Latin_America_FINAL_060608_IH.pdf
Yeah, right. Like if a candidate who, when asked by a reporter, was not able to name one single president in Latin America or has ever laid a foot anywhere south of the border will be good for our region. Don't think so!
"Careerist"? WTF is that supposed to mean?
El Gridiota's entire "career" consists of walking around the streets of LA with a 15-year-old camcorder and annoying the local women.
Genuflexo (servile)
Racista (racist)
Ignorante (ignorant)
Nefasto (ominous)
Difamador (slanderer)
Intolerante (intolerant)
Obtuso (obtuse)
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McCain graduated at the very bottom of his class whereas Obama graduated with honors and during his post graduate studies was named editor of the Harvard Law Review.
The difference is this: Given nobody was born knowing everything then the fact that Obama does his homework makes him the better president compared to an academic flunky like McCain (damaged goods, courtesy of the Viet Cong, like his oppiate-addicted wife) who is operationally impaired. The following is from Andres Oppenheimer in the Miami Herald, a right wing paper:
"Likely Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, who has never visited Latin America, has done his homework.
When I last interviewed him about U.S.-Latin American relations 10 months ago, Obama had trouble naming any head of state south of the U.S. border, and looked like a deer in the headlights when asked about the region's headlines of the day.
But when I interviewed him again Friday in Miami, shortly before his first major speech on Latin American issues, he spoke confidently about regional affairs. He even mentioned two presidents -- by name.
`A NEW ALLIANCE'
He knows he has to conquer Hispanics -- who have favored Sen. Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primaries -- and has begun paying attention to the hemisphere.
Obama said the Bush administration has been ''negligent'' toward the region, and called for ''a new Alliance of the Americas.'' When I asked him for concrete details of what he would do, he mentioned:
• ''We should have a special envoy to the Americas that is actively working with leaders of all the countries in the Americas, and has direct access to me,'' he said. The job existed in the Clinton administration, but was discontinued by President Bush.
• ''We should have an annual summit with leaders of all countries of the Americas, to talk about our common goals and our common interests,'' he said. Currently, the Summit of the Americas is held every three or four years.
• He said he would create an Energy Partnership of the Americas to learn from Brazil's ethanol-production experience, and explore opportunities for nuclear power production in talks with Mexico, Brazil, Argentina and Chile.
• He said he would substantially raise foreign aid to Latin America. ''It is very important for us to focus not only on trade, but also to focus on aid,'' he said. ``The fact that our total aid to Latin America for the year is the equivalent of one week's spending in Iraq gives you some indication of our priorities.''
• He said he will seek ''comprehensive immigration reform,'' involving secure borders, a path to legalization for millions of undocumented workers, and efforts to promote development in Mexico and Central America.
When I asked him what he would do about the estimated 37,000 Interpol-certified Colombian FARC guerrilla computer files that indicate an active support from Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez and Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa to the Colombian rebels, Obama went farther than the Bush administration.
''I think the Organization of American States and the international community should launch an immediate investigation into this situation. We have to hold Venezuela accountable if, in fact, it is trying to ferment terrorist activities in other borders,'' he said.
''If Venezuela has violated those rules,'' he said, ``we should mobilize all the countries to sanction Venezuela and let them know that that's not acceptable behavior.''
Frank_ibc wrote: ...walking around the streets of LA with a 15-year-old camcorder and annoying the local women"
That authoritative tone to your creepy word picture indicates personal knowledge. One question: Your 15 y.o. camcorder, is it vhs or hi8?
Grindio,
Your parents might have instilled in you work ethic or what have you, but they certainly did not teach you how to have class. That is why you brag about silly things like living in a gated community or being able to go clubbing in WeHo or having a mail-order ucranian girlfriend. (wow an indio dating a third world blonde, talk about hating oneself.) Would it make you feel better to know that I used put my Friar's Club invite in my junk mail routinely? What should make you feel better is do what we all do as the sun goes down in surf city u.s.a...light up and chill out...but of course a poser like you wouldn't know about that.
ps. If you really want to help Obama get elected, the best thing you can do is keep quiet. He doesn't need any favours from another Rev. wright nutcase like you.
First, Jim, how did the Sucre book premiere go?
E-G, Thanks for the effort. I'll read through Mr. Obama's paper on Latin American policies and anything else positive you have to asy about the candidate. Of course I'll ignore the attacks on McCain and do my own homework there. Since I know something of Mr. McCain's Vietnam experience, I can automatically discount you disrespect for his military service and five and a half years at the Hanoi Hilton which, once again, brings into question the rest of the attacks.
Somebody give Quasimodo cheese to accompany his whine. Lots of cheese.
;-)
Obama has so much more advantage than McCain in terms of fundraising, media coverage, and exposure. Can you explain (without voluminous copy/paste)why he's unable to pull ahead of McCain, and why McCain is closing the gap in the so-called battleground states?
;-)
The Croats are Morales' Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
Yep,mr mccain and obama tied among registered voters.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109219/Gallup-Daily-Race-Tied-44.aspx
Obama is goin' down!!!
you silly fools. the only poll (aside from the actual vote) that matters is the TRACKING poll among LIKELY voters in SWING states, 30 days prior to the actual elections. All of this is needless noise.
Otherwise this is a far better indicator:
http://iemweb.biz.uiowa.edu/quotes/Pres08_Quotes.html
now who is going to put their money where their mouth is???
That is why you brag about silly things like living in a gated community"
I live in a gated home not "community"; you're projecting your rent-a-condo mindset.
"a mail-order ucranian girlfriend"
Ucrainian girls prefer local ogliarchs instead of Americans because of bad PR re: Iraq and the fall of the dollar. My fiance and I have been together for 5 years, since we met through a church group.
"What should make you feel better is do what we all do as the sun goes down in surf city u.s.a...light up and chill out...but of course a poser like you wouldn't know about that."
Correct that I don't know about that because at the world class level that I surfed at, we didn't do "light up" like the grommet-wannabes who surf HB's mushy small surf and call it "surf city".
It's not easy being me since I was somewhat legendary on some many levels. Just yesterday, I was informed that HB's hottest big wave rider, Timmy Turner, had asked about my legendary feats at Pipeline. Apparently, since I simply disappeared from the surf scene it added to my legend.
So puff away and dream on before you struggle to get into your wetsuit to ride that HB wind chop. That's probably all you'll ever have, judging by your lack of vision and the socio-economic context from which you'll probably never escape if Bush's people get McCain re-elected.
Bush "Vindicator-in-Chief" (VIC),
Maybe if you got off of your kneepad-clad knees and tried to comprehend what you read you'd understand that:
A)The media is giving McCain and his wife (who looted her charity of its opiates) a pass. On balance, there is no pro-Obama bias;
B) The RNC has a humongous fundraising advantage over the DNC which they decided to use to win the presidency and give up keeping congressional seats because the Republican brand is damaged goods. Thus when it is factored in to what the candidates raised, McCain has the economic advantage;
C) Negative ads work; McCain followed the Hillary model (go negative and appeal to the lowest common denominator's prejudice, ignorance and racism) and by hiring Rove's people he has been able to go negative and gain in his poll numbers.
Note: VIC doesn't read for understanding and only asks stupid questions because the objective is trolling and spreading disinformation.
What, not enough cheese for your whine, Quasimodo? ;-)
"There is no pro-Obama bias...Mcain has the economic advantage...prejudice, ignorance, bla, bla, bla..."
(pass for laughter)
Your rambling is increasingly incoherent and your insults are boring. However, that's balanced by entertaining us with the many times you attempt to portray some sort of intellectual ability.
You should really ask for a refund from those "debate" (LOL) classes you say you took.
;-)
The Croats are Morales's Jews
Beni is Morales' Katrina
VIC,
Trolling and spreading the disinformation you've been assigned doesn't require you task yourself to read text. Your understandable aversion to reading more than a simple sentence or two-when you can continue testing the durability of kneepads-may have missed this:
"those on this blog that are gay should know that Judeo-Christian theology holds it as an abomination to God, according to God. Thus, if one is gay, they should know that they are at risk (regardless if they practice safe sex). They should not consider this notice as a judgment or condemnation against them for its purpose is only to inform and put them on notice.
You're on notice.
Norman,
How does getting yourself shot down-like McCain-and captured qualify one for the presidency?
How does the US war machine making you a hero and using that status to cheat on your wife-like McCain-and then marry money-like McCain instead of earning it like Obama did (by way of his self-written bestsellers)-qualify one for the presidency?
Face it bro. From a weak field, McCain-another Bush in terms of intellect as evidenced by graduating at the bottom of his class-has been chosen to continue Bush's policies-after he renounced all his prior independent stands on certain issues.
Just admit you'll vote to keep Republicans in power because you're in denial. You drank the kook-aid; you'll go down with the ship despite what the dollar's fall does to your military pension.
People like you who vote against their own interest are an amazing component of the Republican political power.
Un instrumento: USAID Un objetivo: “Tumbar el proceso de cambio”
Fortunato Esquivel
Ha retornado el embajador Philip Goldberg y de inmediato hizo pomposas declaraciones en sentido que, trabajará para mejorar las relaciones de su país y Bolivia, deterioradas por el proceso de conspiración ejecutada a partir de su gestión, que nada tiene de diplomática y mucho de política intervencionista en nuestros asuntos internos.
Probablemente, el mensaje enviado a los políticos opuestos al actual gobierno, fue que “mejorará” los distintos mecanismos creados para derrocar al gobierno con la activa contribución económica de la Agencia Internacional para el Desarrollo, más conocida como USAID y la encubierta acción de la Agencia Central de Inteligencia (CIA).
¿Hay o no conspiración? , claro que la hay. Actualmente el proceso se encuentra en etapa de provocar situaciones de supuesta “ingobernabilidad” , que permita a los norteamericanos ejecutar sus conocidas “intervenciones humanitarias” para imponer algún régimen favorable a sus intereses.
Néstor García Iturbe, un experto en Ciencias Históricas y miembro del Consejo Científico del Instituto Superior de Relaciones Internacionales, ha revelado que la estrategia contra Bolivia y su gobierno fue definida a través de un informe presentado al Comité de los Servicios Armados de la Cámara de Representantes de Estados Unidos, el 11 de julio de 2007.
Ese informe fue entregado por Thomas Fingar, Subdirector de la Dirección Nacional de Inteligencia (DNI), quien estuvo acompañado por John Kringer, Director de Inteligencia de la CIA y por Robert Cardillo, Subdirector de Análisis de la DIA.
La principal financiera de los proyectos desestabilizadores, fue entretanto identificada públicamente como conspiradora, sobre todo en varias intervenciones del propio Presidente Evo Morales.
USAID utiliza numerosas instituciones sobre todo privadas para ejecutar sus planes y canaliza dineros sin que se note mucho. Para realizar el trabajo en nuestro país, utiliza a la empresa consultora Casals & Associates, Inc cuya presidenta es la cubana Beatriz C. Casals, ligada a la mafia cubana de Miami.
Hace casi cuatro años que la Consultora Casals actúa en Bolivia y en ese periodo repartió 18.8 millones de dólares a más de 450 organizaciones que trabajaron inicialmente en combatir las iniciativas de la Asamblea Constituyente, fomentó el separatismo e influyó en comunidades indígenas socavando el respaldo de éstas al actual gobierno.
Pero las operaciones de USAID y la consultora ligada a los cubanos conocidos como los “gusanos”, no ha pasado tan desapercibida. Los campesinos, sobre todo del Chapare se dieron cuenta de sus actividades y decidieron expulsarla de sus dominios ratificando de esa manera la soberanía popular.
Los gringos, están muy preocupados ante la cercanía del Referéndum Revocatorio, sobre todo después de haberse realizado sondeos reveladores del rechazo a los prefectos denominados de la “Media Luna”, razón por la que sus operadores políticos internos, principalmente centrados en la agrupación “Podemos”, iniciaron una campaña para desvirtuar el referendo y buscar por todos los medios su anulación.
El juego de la democracia burguesa, no es ya del interés de los políticos afiliados al neoliberalismo y ahora sólo buscan tumbar al gobierno por cualquier medio para reinstalar los tiempos en los que hacían lo que querían explotando, oprimiendo y saqueando el país.
La situación es apremiante, por lo que es preciso unificar a los movimientos sociales y los partidos populares de izquierda. Es también preciso, sugerir a los sectores sociales que reclaman por legítimas reivindicaciones, postergar sus demandas para impedir la acometida de los sectores más reaccionarios
SIMILUTUD CON YUGOSLAVIA
La presencia de Philip Goldberg, no es casual, en realidad es parte de un plan concreto para provocar en Bolivia lo mismo que hizo en Yugoslavia. En los departamentos de Santa Cruz, Beni, Pando y Tarija, se concentran las mayores riquezas, sobre todo relacionadas con hidrocarburos. Sus prefectos se han convertido en activistas del regionalismo y del odio contra las nacionalidades indígenas, quienes por primera vez lograron llegar al gobierno con la victoria de Evo Morales el 15 de diciembre de 2005.
El método utilizado por Estados Unidos en Yugoslavia, hasta dividirla en siete países (Bosnia-Herzegovina , Croacia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, Eslovenia y Kosovo), es también usado en otros países como Irak, donde están intentando dividirla en tres, uno Chiita, otro Sunita y un tercero Kurdo.
Bolivia, podría ser la siguiente víctima de estas intenciones y para ello envió a Philip Goldberg, quien fue el último enviado especial de Washington en Yugoslavia. No debe quedar ninguna duda que, este siniestro embajador pretende utilizar su criminal experiencia para dividir Bolivia.
Y ¿por qué se provocó la división de Yugoslavia?, pues nada más y nada menos que por la necesidad de controlar los oleoductos y gasoductos de puntos estratégicos de Europa. No sería de extrañar que la intención de dividir a Bolivia en por lo menos dos países, tenga la misma intención por controlar los hidrocarburos, que son la principal riqueza nacional por los siguientes cien años.
Los bolivianos, tenemos que mantenernos en alerta frente a los métodos preferidos de intervención que emplea Estados Unidos y están identificados como la intervención directa a través de una invasión y el método indirecto o la “balcanización” a través de guerras civiles o intervenciones indirectas.
Ahora que el embajador regresó con directivas concretas para frenar o destruir el proceso de cambio, no debe quedar dudas sobre las intenciones del imperio de mantener bajo su control el oro negro (petróleo), el oro azul (agua dulce bajo las arenas del Chaco) y oro verde (bosques amazónicos), recursos que escasearán en el futuro y que los bolivianos debemos preservar para nuestros descendientes.
"those on this blog that are gay should know that Judeo-Christian theology holds it as an abomination to God, according to God."
Interesting theory... where do you get that? Do you mean that both Jewish and Christian faiths attest to that? I think most Rabbi's might disagree. St. Paul's writings constitute the first and only outright condemnation that I'm aware of. Why do you bring it up?
Apparently he suddenly feels the need to prove that he is not a homosexual.
Typical for his "logic", he notes that certain passsages in the Bible condemn homosexual acts. Somehow he thinks that by citing these, that proves that he isn't infected with Teh Gay, because to him, loving and tolerant liberal that he is, being perceived as a flaming mariposa is a very bad thing indeed.
I suppose you were expecting logic from him, for a change?
Norman ("N") wrote: "Interesting theory... where do you get that?"
EG: Where else but from the primary source:
A) Old Testament: Genesis 19:1-25; Judges 19:22-30; Leviticus 18:22; and Leviticus 20:13) and 5 in the B) New Testament: Romans 1:24-28; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:8-11; 2 Peter 2:6-10; and Jude
N: "Do you mean that both Jewish and Christian faiths attest to that?"
EG: Yes, that is my understanding; see above cites from the respective "holy books" of each faith since my position is based on a holistic, view within context.
N: "St. Paul's writings constitute the first and only outright condemnation that I'm aware of"
EG: Paul wrote that in Romans for people like yourself that are not comfortable with idea that gay behavior is not of God or sanctioned by Him but rather the opposite. Because you are a devout Catholic it may be that you are like Obama, not a regular nor attentive attendee of where you claim to practice your faith. Or, it could be priests of your parish (of whom it is believed over half are gay) may have an agenda not to address this issue because they too are uncomfortable with the idea or because it is seen as an intolerant idea. Thus you stand in ignorance if you do not have a close relationship with God whereby He guides your learning by way of his "holy spirit".
As for your mistaken idea that the passage in Romans is the "first and only outright condemnation", consider it within context. Refer to the other passages that deal with it indirectly-through discussion on sexual purity and promiscuity, family and marriage-guide the believer. (see Genesis 2:18-25; Proverbs 18:22; Mark 7:21, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-5; Romans 6:13, 13:13; 1 Corinthians 6:13, 18-19; Galatians 5:19-21; Colossians 3:5; Revelation 21:8, 22:15.
Regardless if one considers the Bible the word of God or literature, it always defines homosexual conduct as a serious sin. (Note "sodomy" is derived from Sodom and Gommorah, which God destroyed) That sin is often regarded as being within the context of idolatry, which is the most serious of acts that separate us from God (sin).
As for your thoughts on what "most Rabbis" think: Have them explain why the Torah/Old Testament classified homosexual conduct as a capital offense. If they try to tell you about the law of Leviticus and how many aspects of the law no longer apply today, note that that applies to ceremonial or procedural law but not substantive or moral law because God is the same yesterday or today.
By the way, I have no position on gay marriage just like I take no position on laws outlawing smoking. I have enough issues of my own so suffice it to inform gays and smokers of what my understanding is regarding what they will reap by sowing what they sow today.
So Norman, if your wife used to be a Catholic priest or is that being with the highly developed knowledge of the resistance to wear of certain kneepad brands, so be it. I neither condemn you nor judge you despite providing you notice of that which I understand you should know.
But then you are a retired marine ekeing out a living in the hinterlands of Bolivia because of your misguided Bush Republican conduct (voting against your own interests). Please continue as you were (i.e., reinsert your head in the sand like an ostrich).
ERRATA:
4 sources in
A) OLD TESTAMENT: Genesis 19:1-25; Judges 19:22-30; Leviticus 18:22; Leviticus 20:13
and 5 sources in the
B)New Testament: Romans 1:24-28; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:8-11; 2 Peter 2:6-10; and Jude 7.
Are you jealous of Norman's wife, Gridiota?
Norman, and Bush's kneepad-clad "Vindicator-in-Chief" ("VIC"),who cannot read more than a couple of simple sentences at a time, in Leviticus, Chapter 18, at verse 22 it is written:
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
VIC, this format makes the following simple and clear enough for a 4th grader or you:
A)technically the above specifically says "lie";
B)it makes no mention of kneepad use or the conduct whereupon your empirically-derived vast knowledge regarding wear and tear on kneepads was based when you advised Evo on what brand to wear when he would be on his knees before Chavez;
thus
C) I hope you do not take the above personally. :-)
Frank_IBC wrote: "Are you jealous of Norman's wife, Gridiota?"
No, "Father Frank", I am not jealous of you.
Next.
"So Norman, if your wife used to be a Catholic priest" that's my Gringo indio - always there with an insult for those who dare question him. And then he goes on about ad-hominems as though he never engaged in one himself. No, she never was a priest, nun, or sister. Now you've insulted both my daughter and my wife. Would you like to try for my Mom? Quite the Christian example you demonstrate.
Now as to your poor understanding of scripture: only those who make the most cursory reading of Genesis 19 would come to the conclusion that it condemns homosexuality.
Before they went to bed, all the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old--all the people to the last man--closed in on the house. They called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intimacies with them." ... They replied, "Stand back! This fellow," they sneered, "came here as an immigrant, and now he dares to give orders! We'll treat you worse than them!"
Their crime on this specific occasion was not sodomy (you might notice the word is English and not Hebrew or Aramaic therefore it's origin has nothing to do with the validity of scripture) but the intent to violently assault and rape the guests of Lot (who unfortunately for them happened to be angels).
The same goes with your reference in Judges: While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, who were corrupt, surrounded the house and beat on the door. They said to the old man whose house it was, "Bring out your guest, that we may abuse him." ... When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go.
These were instances of depravity and forced sex unless you believe that every homosexual act can be equated to these.
Your Levitical references are better and may have some validity except that the Lord specifically directed them to the Israelites.
The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and tell them: I, the LORD, am your God. You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt, where you once lived, nor shall you do as they do in the land of Canaan
So your Old Testament references do not, in fact, prove your point. Moreover, no doubt you will recall from your study of Paul, that one of his key points throughout his missionary travels, indeed the critical point for the Council in Jerusalem, (between Paul's first and second missionary journeys), is that the Gentiles were not to be held to obey Jewish law and customs. Salvation is not in the law, but through faith in Jesus Christ.
Acts 15:1-2 Some who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved."
Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question.
Acts 15:23-29 This is the letter delivered by them: "The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings.
Since we have heard that some of our number (who went out) without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth:
'It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.'"
You are correct that Paul himself speaks out against homosexuality in Romans, but I already said as much. Your references in second Peter and Jude simply refer back to Sodom and Gomorrah, an issue we've already addressed. Jude, in fact, specifically states that their crime was that they "indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice". So we are left with Paul, a Jewish Pharisee born and raised in Greece who held Roman citizenship. The Greeks and Romans most certainly engaged in homosexuality and sexual deviation of a sort not seen again until Hollywood.
Even in Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, the condemnation is not clearly against homosexuality, but against those who engage in sex with boy prostitutes (see the note from the New American Bible: The Greek word translated as boy prostitutes may refer to catamites, i.e., boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world. In Greek mythology this was the function of Ganymede, the "cupbearer of the gods," whose Latin name was Catamitus. The term translated Sodomites refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys.)
By the way, you missed reference to 1 Timothy 1:10.
My personal belief, based on Romans 1, is that homosexual acts (not homosexuality) are sinful and the individuals should refrain from them. I do not think the subject is nearly as clear as the religious right make it out to be and I'm surprised to see you heralding their banner. The homosexuals that I've met certainly do not strike me as bearing the slightest resemblance to those condemned in Sodom or Gomorrah.
As to the Catholic Church (and your incessant assaults), while it does recognize the sin, it focuses more on the need for compassion and forgiveness. As to the Catholic priests you make reference to - shouldn't you also focus on their violation of the underage vice any homosexual tendencies... or do you believe that all homosexuals have a propensity to be child molesters?
Now as to whether I attend service: actually I do attend Catholic mass two to three times a week as well as Eucharistic adoration on Thursdays occasionally scripture study on Wednesdays. I try to study scripture daily, though I need to improve here as well as on my prayer life. My wife and I visit the sick weekly (most weeks anyway), teach catechism and participate in a monthly marriage group designed to strengthen our marriage and invite the Holy Spirit into our union.
E-G, it’s none of my business how or when you worship, but have you ever attended a Catholic mass?
Now my ERRATA... you din't miss 1 Timothy 1:10... I did.
This fellow," they sneered, "came here as an immigrant, and now he dares to give orders! We'll treat you worse than them!"
Strangely appropriate.
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E-G said: Norman,
How does getting yourself shot down-like McCain-and captured qualify one for the presidency?
Where did you get the idea that I thought that?!? I said that I appreciate your positive (though meager) data on Obama and that I would ignore your negative attacks on McCain and your disrespect of his military service (how many years did you serve?) and do my own research on his qualifications. Really, you read too much into the comments.
To Frank... ROTFL... I didn't even consider that.
You'd think for such a rabid anti-bush type, grindio would not use bush's technique of using religion to spread hate. however you cut it, grindio is not a true believer, but appears to be closer to be a southern bible belt conservative and definitely aspires to have the lifestyle of his so much hated croats.
We have here a barbara streinsand liberal...criticizing everybody's carbon footprint, but heaven forbid he live not in a mansion, several extra cars and engaging in extreme conspicuous consumption that will never help him get over the fact that he hates himself for what he is.
Anon 7:1PM,
"...use bush's technique of using religion to spread hate."
How so. I spread information not hate.
"...grindio ... definitely aspires to have the lifestyle of his so much hated croats".
Huh? Those small town hicks? Collectively, they're wannabe Nazis from Mayberry.
"We have here a barbara streinsand liberal... heaven forbid he live not in a mansion, several extra cars and engaging in extreme conspicuous consumption..."
Got me there. I have a tough time accepting that my right wing "friends" are not at least successful financially given that they value material things over human values.
"...that will never help him get over the fact that he hates himself for what he is..."
Huh? "what [I am]"? And based on your poor reading and comprehension skills, that would be...? Whatever, dude.
Fun stuff, testing a hypothesis or refuting what passes for arguments on this blog. Better yet, when the debate gets muddled and the ad hominems start flying, the best argument is to live longer and better. Which is assisted by opening a nice bottle of Chardonnay or Cabernet Sauvignon. You haters should know that sipping up to two glasses lowers the risk of heart attack 30-50% and can raise HDL cholesterol.
More common ground! Although I'll usually go for a glass or two of Malbec, Cabernet Sauvignon is an excellent choice.
Norman,
Thank you for the line by line refutation that helps illuminate our understanding. Not bad. Wrong, but not bad.
I want to make a thoughtful rebuttal that guides you in understanding why your position is fatally flawed. It is not possible for me to take about 15-20 minute to prepare a response for that is not possible on a Saturday night with dinner reservations waiting. Besides, when the sun goes down yours truly comes to life.
I'll catch you manana before or after Church.
Sounds good E-G. Enjoy the night. It's good to get a positive response. You should be able to make a decent refutation as the entire point has been hotly debated for about 2,000 years. My focus of study this year is Pauline theology and how it compares / contrasts with the rest of the New Testament.
"As to surfing "down under", surfing Tahiti or Fiji's outer reefs is preferable to Jeffrey's Bay in South Africa with my buddy (former world champ) Shaun Thompson or Kirra in Australia with my other bro (former world champ) Occy since EG is a goofy foot."
BWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
poser!
anon 3:23AM wrote:
"BWWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! poser!"
The above was written by a troll, who knows nothing about surfing on a world class level. Like all trolls, this one seeks to rattle El Grindio. Unique to this blog, this likely troll from the US Mission has an agenda to divert me from my topical comments that arise from a political agenda to be an advocate for Bolivian social movements building democracy from the bottom up.
Yet, I respond because I can compartmentalize and I am proud to be an "old school" world class surfer (defined then as a "soul surfer" for surfing big uncrowded wave instead of being a contest surfer). Whereas, that troll wasn't... a world class surfer; a soul surfer or even a surfer.
Anyone can write a pejorative ("poser"). It takes a lot more to know about surfing at the world class level: jargon; insights as to what it means to be a man who rides mountains; and who the players are/were. Having paddled out to the horizon to conquer my fear as much as the challenge of "Third Reef" waves, I am willing to answer any questions about big waves at the world's proving grounds, the North Shore of Oahu.
Otherwise keep the topics of your comments topical. Remember this blog is about Bolivia, not me.
For those genuinely interested in some recent books on Bolivia, here's three just published this year by Duke University Press:
"El Alto, Rebel City: Self and Citizenship in Andean Bolivia" by Sian Lazar
"A Revolution for Our Rights: Indigenous Struggles for Land and Justice in Bolivia, 1880-1952" by Laura Gotkowitz
"From Silver to Cocaine: Latin American Commodity Chains and the Building of the World Economy, 1500-2000" edited by Steven Topik, Carlos Marichal, and Zephyr Frank.
The "Silver to Cocaine" volume isn't entirely about Bolivia, of course, but the region. The Gotkowitz book is a historical look at indigenous uprisings against the liberal republic that cam before the 1952 national revolution. Gotkowitz is a well-known Bolivianist (she had a chapter in the edited volume "Proclaiming Revolution" on the 50th anniversary of the Bolivian 1952 Revolution).
The Sian Lazar is perhaps the most interesting. It's a social ethnography of El Alto and its powerful role in contemporary Bolivian politics. Another older book on El Alto, but one that looks not at growing political power but political economic marginalization, is Leslie Gill's "Teetering on the Rim". Both authors look at El Alto as a place where indigenous movements and neoliberal policies intereact.
ok grindio...what is in the batter for the fish taco that they serve on the North Shore? stick to your valterra boards, poser.
Dude, apparently the composition of the fish tacos you overfeed yourself is the closest you will ever come to the line up at Pipeline on a West/Northwest swell. If you surfed, you'd know to ask a question about swell direction (like what is the significance of that type of swell), composition of the reef at Pipeline, the takeoff spot according to swell direction or how one lines up on a 12' day (measured from behind the wave whereas from the front it looks triple overhead) when the swell is straight west.
You're obviously the type of guy the locals dismiss by beating you up and telling you, "Go home, haole!" LOL :-)
Again, since you know nothing about surfing big waves on the North Shore, stick to topics about building democracy in Bolivia. It's not all about you and your inadequacy as a wannabe surfer. Order another Macdonalds burger since the North Shore rarely breaks in the summer thus there is no need for you to order fishtacos to watch surfers by.
I think you are referring to the March issue of surfer magazine?
http://surfingthemag.com/surfing-photo-video/surfing-videos/screenroom/4/morocco-video-clip-052506/index.html
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